[ale] upgrading desktop

Jim Kinney jim.kinney at gmail.com
Wed Jul 29 13:54:11 EDT 2020 

+1!!

Always good to have a spare tinkering machine. I have managed to give away probably 90-100 over the years and through "the great geek giveaway" v1 & v2 :-)



On July 29, 2020 10:05:36 AM EDT, Leam Hall via Ale <ale at ale.org> wrote:
>Hey Bob,
>
>I won't contradict the others; they know a lot more about the current 
>hardware stuff than I. My suggestion would add to theirs.
>
>See if your local Goodwill, or similar, has a computer store. When mine
>
>opens back up I can get refurb Dells for $50 (I'm using one as I write 
>this). If you got one you could use it to ensure your migration skills 
>are ready, as well as have a back up machine in case your primary goes 
>south. I do development on mine, push updates to git each session, and 
>do weekly backups to an external drive. Quarterly uploads to Google 
>drive. And I've restored from my backups, too.   :)
>
>If you have a cheap machine you could have more time to build your own.
>
>It's a fun hobby, and with the level of expertise here you can build a 
>great box.
>
>Leam
>
>
>On 7/29/20 9:35 AM, Bob via Ale wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Jim,
>> 
>> Both you and J.D. are suggesting that I not bother putting more
>memory 
>> in my current system, so I'll scrap that idea.  Both of you prefer an
>
>> AMD cpu for the desktop.
>> 
>> You're suggesting purchasing a 2 year old, off-lease machine with an
>AMD 
>> cpu and DDR4 memory.  Your philosophy with computers sounds similar
>to 
>> mine about cars.  I prefer to buy a car that's a couple of years old,
>
>> and then drive it until
>> 
>> J.D. is suggesting replacing cpu and motherboard provided I have a 
>> decent case.  If I don't have a decent case, I think he's suggesting 
>> building a new desktop.  Building a desktop sounds intriguing since
>I've 
>> never done that; however, I think I should wait on a project like
>that 
>> until I have more free time.
>> 
>> Both of you like having an ssd.   I'll look into that.  At least one
>of 
>> you doesn't think it's that important to keep directories that are 
>> frequently read from and written to off of the ssd, correct?
>> 
>> --Bob
>> 
>> 
>> On 2020-07-28 6:56 p.m., Jim Kinney via Ale wrote:
>>> I have to keep kicking myself that when I spec a system, it's a node
>
>>> in an HPC stack that will run HARD 24x7 for the next 6-8 years by 
>>> several hundred people I'm convinced are trying to crash systems.
>Most 
>>> normal people don't need 3GHz dual 32-core cpus with 500GB RAM and
>4TB 
>>> of RAID1 NVME scratch space and 100G Infinniband to share data
>between 
>>> dual P100 GPUs. (Buy 100+ of these systems and call me. I'll make 
>>> house calls)
>>>
>>> Keep this in mind: personal machine power efficiency has improved so
>
>>> much that buying an off lease cheap box (2 years old) will be an big
>
>>> upgrade compared to a mid price system of 6-8 years ago. AMD is
>always 
>>> better performance per watt than Intel.
>>>
>>> When I did the price point calculations, the "knee" in the price vs 
>>> performance curve was about 2 releases back from the most recent for
>
>>> almost all technology components. Don't buy the fastest or biggest. 
>>> Buy the third or fourth fastest.
>>>
>>> Getting DDR4 RAM is a good plan. Way, WAY cheaper per GB than prior 
>>> types.
>>>
>>> I've had decent performance from RealTek 1G network chips. The Intel
>
>>> ones are way better but 4x the price. For desktop hitting interwebs 
>>> for basic stuff, realtek won't be the slow point. For a home file 
>>> server, it's a nightmare. Use Intel cpu for that as well. Never dug 
>>> into why, but Xeon is great for file servers. AMD is for number 
>>> crunching.
>>>
>>> SSD tech is where I get fussy/crazy. I will buy cutting edge when
>all 
>>> that matters is speed (and it's someone elses money). When I need a 
>>> balance of performance and reliability, RAID1 SSD 2 gens back from 
>>> leading edge (this is my standard for most things, home and work). 
>>> When it's my money and longevity is paramount, a single SSD 3 gens 
>>> from edge plus a spinning rust disk for local backup. It's not off 
>>> site but if the house burns, I'll have bigger issues.
>>>
>>> I futzed around with raid and mixed drives, ssd and rust. Under most
>
>>> home read conditions, raid1 worked fine. But during heavy writes
>with 
>>> reads, it was a mess. Of course I was using Linux software raid. But
>
>>> getting behind larger than write behind buffer on hardware raid will
>
>>> generate a system wait to flush then it _all_ flushes. Not great
>doing 
>>> a video convert.
>>>
>>> My $0.02. worth about that much, too 👍
>>>
>>> On July 28, 2020 4:06:11 PM EDT, DJ-Pfulio via Ale <ale at ale.org>
>wrote:
>>>> What's your budget?  What's the goal?
>>>>
>>>> Is the Lenovo using standard PSU and case? If it doesn't have a
>>>> standard case, most major "upgrades" are risky. Need all the screws
>and
>>>> clearances to be right.  OTOH, a $30 case for someone who doesn't
>open
>>>> it more than once a year to clean out the dust is just fine.
>>>>
>>>> The easy way to provide info about your current box, is to run: 
>inxi
>>>> -Fz and post that.
>>>>
>>>> $214 for MB+CPU combo:
>>>>
>https://www.microcenter.com/product/5003878/-amd-ryzen-5-3600-with-wraith-stealth-cooler,-asus-b450m-a-csm-prime,-cpu---motherboard-bundle
>
>>>>
>>>> The only negative I see with this is a crappy Realtek NIC, so I'd
>need
>>>> to spend $25 on a quality NIC.  The forums are full of people with
>>>> Realtek NIC issues. I have a G3258 with a flakey Realtek NIC. Ended
>up
>>>> disabling it and throwing in an old cheap Marvell.
>>>>
>>>> I need to check a few other MB+CPU combos to see what's available.
>>>> Microcenter almost always has some
>>>>
>>>> With a standard case, that MB+CPU combo just needs some DDR4 RAM
>and a
>>>> GPU.  That's almost 18K passmarks in 65W.  5 yrs ago, that was Xeon
>>>> server performance.  My Ryzen 2600 is just 13K passmarks.  Reuse
>>>> everything else you already have.
>>>>
>>>> There's little purpose in doing a little upgrade to an 8 yr old CPU
>>>> unless it is only a CPU swap and the newer one is 2x faster -
>minimal.
>>>> However, an SSD would make a difference for pretty much any system.
>>>> I'm a fan of the Samsung 8xx and 9xx lines. Just be sure to check
>the
>>>> warranty TBW numbers so you know what you are getting. I have a
>>>> model: Samsung_SSD_860 size: 500.1GB in a laptop. It is a SATA
>>>> interface with a 2.5inch form factor standard for laptops.  I've
>never
>>>> seen a 3.5inch form in any SATA.  I have seen m.2 for both SATA and
>>>> NVMe, but you don't have any m.2 slots, so that won't work.  My
>rule
>>>> for SSDs is pretty simple.  If they don't have a warranty based on
>TBW
>>>> (endurance) or they refuse to publish that data, then I won't buy.
>>>> Their are a number of SSD "brands" which do that.  I've had a few
>SSDs
>>>> fail over the years. They were much cheaper than the Samsung.
>>>> I also have a model: Micron_1100_MTFD size: 512.1GB.  Micron is who
>I
>>>> think WD and Crucial buy their SSDs from.  I would have preferred
>to
>>>> get a Samsung, but needed the storage for a build and was already
>over
>>>> the budget. The Samsung was $30 more at the time.
>>>>
>>>> When I was researching SSD lifespans and linux information, so
>things
>>>> jumped out.  I'm a simple person and only recall when I make a
>decision
>>>> to avoid certain types, not the details. Those decisions are based
>on
>>>> my needs which probably don't meet anyone else's needs.  Do your
>own
>>>> research.  Plus, it has been 18+ months since my last SSD purchase.
>The
>>>> SSD world could have changed in that time.
>>>>
>>>> How big should an SSD be?  How can we say? For some systems, 16G is
>too
>>>> much. For others 2TB isn't enough.
>>>>
>>>> Because you didn't say what CPU is currently used, we can't tell
>>>> whether any upgrade is worth it.
>>>>
>>>> 280W is probably fine for anyone not dropping in a $130 GPU that
>needs
>>>> extra power, but it completely depends on the current CPU draw and
>how
>>>> much storage there is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/28/20 12:16 PM, Bob via Ale wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles has me thinking about upgrading my 8 year old lenovo
>desktop.
>>>>> I'm thinking of increasing memory and installing an ssd.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know much about hardware, so I'm hoping some of you might
>>>>> give me some advice and maybe keep me from doing something stupid.
>>>>> I'm not a gamer, so that might make things simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)  Memory.  Currently, there are  two 4 GB ddr3 1600 memory
>modules
>>>>> in the two memory slots.  There is no graphics card in my desktop
>and
>>>>> the integrated graphics uses some of the memory.  I can upgrade to
>>>>> two 8 gb ddr3l 1600.  According to crucial.com, the crucial 16gb
>kit
>>>>> (2 x 8GB) ddr3l-1600 udimm are compatible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe my motherboard can use either ddr3 or ddr3l.  Is there
>an
>>>>> advantage of one over the other?
>>>>>
>>>>> (The power supply unit has been fine, but it's only 280 watts.  I
>>>>> don't know if that would affect the above choice or not.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Microcenter has a variety of brands:  Neo Forza, G. skills ripjaw,
>>>>> crucial, ....  Are there brands to avoid?  Are there brands that
>>>>> you'd recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2)  ssd.  This seems more complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 4 empty pci express slots---one is x16 and the others
>x1.
>>>>> I do not believe that the motherboard supports pcie ssd.  The
>>>>> motherboard does not have mSATA or m.2 slots.  So pcie ssd seems
>to
>>>>> be impossible. (I don't know what I'd ever use these slots for.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The chipset on the motherboard only supports SATA at 3.0 gb/s. 
>There
>>>>> are 3 SATA ports and one e-SATA port.  (There has been no update
>to
>>>>> the bios/uefi firmware.)
>>>>>
>>>>> One SATA port is connected to the optical drive, and the other two
>>>>> SATA ports are connected to the two 1TB HDDs Both drives have
>plenty
>>>>> of free space.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know why I get slightly different info for the following.
>>>>> When I execute "sudo hdparm -I /dev/sda | grep SATA", the result
>is:
>>>>>
>>>>> Transport:          Serial, SATA Rev 3.0
>>>>>
>>>>> but on /dev/sdb, the result is:
>>>>>
>>>>> Transport:          Serial, SATA 1.0a, SATA II Extensions, SATA
>Rev
>>>>> 2.5, SATA Rev 2.6, SATA Rev 3.0
>>>>>
>>>>> The e-SATA port is connected to a usm hot-swappable bay where I'm
>>>>> supposed to be able to plug in a portable SATA drive.  The
>connector
>>>>> is supposed to be a standard SATA connector.  I have never used
>this
>>>>> bay so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like I could either purchase an external SATA ssd and
>plug
>>>>> it into the bay.  I don't know if I would have troubles booting
>from
>>>>> that drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, I could remove one of the HDDs and put the SSD into either
>>>>> /dev/sda or /dev/sdb.  Presumably, I could put the HDD that was
>>>>> removed into an enclosure allowing it to be placed into the
>swappable
>>>>> bay on the rare occasions that it was needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)  Does it seem better to remove an HDD and put the ssd into that
>>>>> space vs. putting the ssd into the swappable bay?  Does it make a
>>>>> difference if the ssd is put into the drive where /dev/sda is or
>>>>> /dev/sdb?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2)  Any suggestions on how large the ssd should be?
>>>>>
>>>>> 3)  Are there brands to avoid or brands that you would recommend?
>>>>>
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>>>
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>> 
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