[ale] Voting machines

Tue Dec 8 13:23:10 EST 2020

There is a very real cost to using paper ballots: a human cost.
Paper ballots work well for VERY SMALL precincts:  think <500 ballots cast.
I have lived in a small rural county with five precincts, each with less
than 600 registered voters.  All voting done on paper ballots.
Volunteer precinct workers arrive at 5 am and count EVERY blank ballot
before the polls open at 7 am.  There will be one ballot for National
elections, one for state elections, one for local elections and, very often
yet another ballot for some sort of "special" election. When the polls
close at 7 pm the volunteers (who have been there for 14 hours so far) lock
the doors, eat dinner and begin counting, starting with all the unused
ballots.  On a seriously contested election there will be maybe 350 - 400
ballots in each ballot box.  If everything goes smoothly, the counting will
be done by midnight and the poll workers can go home -- all except the
precinct captain who must deliver all the ballot boxes, ballots (used and
unused), and tally sheets to the County Voting Registrar's office first.
If you tried to double the size of the precinct the counting wouldn't
finish until after sunrise -- the first time you tried this.  The next time
would be problematic because you would lose ALL of your volunteers.
A lot of time can be saved by using a machine to count the ballots, but
this gives rise to a different set of problems, as many on this list will
appreciate.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:45 AM DJ-Pfulio via Ale <ale at ale.org> wrote:

> I disagree with having any voting machines at all. They are a waste
> of money, add complexity where it isn't needed.
>
> Voting in Georgia has 2 complex processes (election day and early
> voting) and 1 simple process (absentee) when only 1 simple process
> is needed.  Pen and paper.
>
> Why make it harder than that?
>
> Pen and paper can be used for absentee, early and election day
> voting. Humans (election workers) don't need to learn 2 complex
> processes and waste time setting up computers, securing power,
> equipment, and generally wasting money for things not directly
> related to reading a ballot.
>
> Paper ballots scale by adding tables and chairs.
> Power outages don't stop voting.
>
> Missing memory cards?  Huh? Why is that even a thing?  Human training
> failures will continue to happen, as long as the processes are complex.
>
> Pen and paper is the answer.
>
> Question: Why don't ACT/SAT use computers for testing kids?
> Answer: because it is a stupid idea due to logistics, expense,
>         complexity.
>
> If I had my way, Georgia would move towards the way that Oregon
> votes and registers voters. The goal is to get every Georgia citizen
> to vote legally and to allow citizens who choose not to vote or be
> registered to do that as well. But it needs to be harder NOT to be
> registered than to get registered, not the other way around.
>
> Voting on my kitchen table, where I can spend a few days looking
> through candidates, their platforms, and considering each is much
> better than "winging it" on election day after waiting in line.
> Someone said they "only" had to wait in line 2 hours to vote early
> in October.  That's a waste of time. Have the absentee ballot delivered
> to your home, then vote when it is convenient to you any time before
> election day.
>
> If your postal delivery isn't secure, then use early voting ... or
> pick up a ballot package, take it home. This isn't possible today in
> Georgia, but hopefully they will make it so. No need to have both
> early voting as a separate process.
>
> I love the ballot drop off boxes. Simple, elegant, convenient. No need
> to trust the USPS, if you don't want that.
>
> In Oregon, they've not seen any widespread voting fraud in the 20+ yrs
> they've been voting by mail. Seems like a good system to me. Definitely
> more convenient.
>
> IMHO.
>
> On 12/8/20 11:23 AM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote:
> > The current process with text and QR codes is an improvement. If the
> > validation also includes extensive spot checks that QR matches text,
> > it's a good indicator things are OK.
> >
> > I've not seen if that was done but it seems the powers that run the
> > election are trying to get it into an acceptable process.
> >
> > If the scanner into the bin also included a display with a choice to
> > approve of disapprove the scanning, that would satisfy me the scanner
> > works as designed. If approved, votes are cast. If not, ballot is
> > rejected and some validation testing is done including destruction of
> > ballot and recreation of ballot by voter.
> >
> >
> >
> > On December 8, 2020 10:21:31 AM EST, Adrya Stembridge via Ale
> > <ale at ale.org> wrote:
> >
> > Is there still a lingering belief that Georgia's election results
> > (specifically) are suspect?  The Carter Center independently oversaw
> > the election and hand paper recounts and found zero evidence of
> > fraud.  The big question is in light of what evidence is available,
> > should we distrust Georgia's new voting machines going forward?
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:16 AM Bruno Bronosky via Ale <ale at ale.org
> > <mailto:ale at ale.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, I don't think we should engage it support or position to
> > political candidates or parties on this list. We have, however,
> > discussed policies since it's inception. We have always limited those
> > policy discussions to what is relevant to Open Source software. I
> > would like to think that we can ignore the candidates and come
> > together around the idea that transparent and accurate elections are
> > essential. As "software socialists" I don't think any of us are
> > likely to find a politician* we would feel justified in advocating**
> > for to this audience (**which is what we all want to avoid). For that
> > reason I don't think we need to be afraid to discuss voting
> > technology.
> >
> > * I've never heard of a major politician insisting that any software
> > purchased by the government is owned by the tax payers and that at a
> > minimum we should all be free to run it, but ultimately we should
> > also be Free to exercise the 4 Freedoms of Free Software.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 10:24 PM SpaXpert, Inc. <spaxpert at gmail.com
> > <mailto:spaxpert at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > It's the biggest hot potato of the century Bruno.  I get it that
> > nobody wants to speak up because that could cause a huge political
> > divide amongst the ALE group. We really don't need this discourse as
> > we all seem to get along here with our problem solving and missions
> > in mind. Take care man. Doug
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 11:16 PM Bruno Bronosky via Ale <ale at ale.org
> > <mailto:ale at ale.org>> wrote:
> >
> > I know this used to be a big issue with this group. I'm surprised
> > there's no talk of it now.
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