[ale] upgrading desktop

Alex Carver agcarver+ale at acarver.net
Wed Aug 12 13:13:52 EDT 2020 

Fan diameter also matters.  Larger diameter fans can move more air at a
lower RPM than small fans.  Slower RPMs means less turbulence which
means less noise.  The "free" fan you get with a lot of CPUs is almost
the size of the chip at only 10-20 mm across so they spin fast and loud.
Big fans like 100mm, 120mm, etc. will spin more slowly.

Also the bearing type matters.  The "free" fan and similar very cheap
fans all use a sleeve bearing which wears out quickly and causes the
rotor and blades to chatter when it does start to wear out.  This adds
to the noise, causes fan speeds to fluctuate, and sometimes gives the
fan a groaning/grinding noise.  Ball bearing fans are more expensive
because they're a bit more involved to produce but they tend to run
quieter at the start and stay that way for longer.  Again a larger fan
will spin more slowly so the bearings last even longer.  There are also
some magnetofluidic bearings on some fans available but they can have
restrictions on fan orientation and they're quite expensive but very quiet.

The main power supply fan also matters.  It used to be that AT/ATX
supplies had the fan mounted on the back near the power inlet port.  The
problem with that design was that the inlet port reduced the available
area for a fan and the case for the supply tends to be shorter on that
face.  I bought a Corsair for my ATX case and Corsair decided to push
the fan down to the large face that is inside the case.  So the fan in
my power supply is actually 160 mm and sucks air in from the case and
blows it out through the grille on the back of the power supply (next to
the inlet port).  Much quieter, the fan runs at like 200 RPM or so.

I have four fans in my tower ATX case total.  The power supply I
mentioned above at 160 mm.  There are two additional case fans, one
front and one rear, each one being 140 mm and typically spins around
200-250 RPM.  The fourth fan is on the CPU.  I bought a heat-pipe
radiator that uses a side-mounted fan instead of a typical top-mounted
fan on an aluminum fin heatsink like you find with the "free" fan.  The
fan on the heat pipes is 120 mm and spins around 150 RPM.  The heat-pipe
system is actually quite efficient because it can provide a larger
exchange area (more fins, more surface area) so it benefits from some
natural convection and overall case airflow reducing the speed of the
on-heatsink fan.

Most of the time my CPU runs under 50 C unless I'm hammering it.  It's
been a while so I might need to reapply the silver paste heat sink
compound.  That's another point, use real heat sink compound which is a
silver colloid.  The white paste is good for power transistors but the
CPU generates more power so you benefit from the silver content.
Adhesive thermal pads are useless for desktop CPUs.

A fun alternative to silver paste is thin indium foil.  If you're able
to buy it, it's the best heatsink interface you can get.  It's fully
conformal, has thermal conductivity similar to silver, and it never
dries out like paste or pads.  I have not yet been able to buy indium as
an individual, most places don't like to do that but I use indium all
the time at work for thermal interfaces including cryogenic
applications.  Once in a while I try to buy some, but no business
license typically means no sales even though indium is not toxic or harmful.

On 2020-08-10 13:00, David Jackson via Ale wrote:
> Oh, forgot one thing about quiet PCs!
> 
> A lot of noise can come from old fans whose bearings are wearing out.  Or
> even if there's something wrong with the fan.  If you take the cover off
> while the fans are running, a lot of times you can see or hear which
> fan/fans is/are making too much noise.  Even my old ears can notice a fan
> getting old and starting to make a lot of noise before it completely dies.
> Replacing it is usually a rather cheap fix.  Noctua fans have the
> reputation of being the quietest on the market, although newer companies
> (like BeQuiet) are now giving them lots of competition.
> 
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:50 PM David Jackson <deepbsd.ale at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Bob,
>>
>>>>> For the new desktop I'm leaning towards a cheap graphics card as
>> suggested by several along with the ryzen 5 3600 on a B450 motherboard.
>> (I'm not interested in gaming.)  Is the cheap graphics card still a
>> reasonable choice if I have to record video?
>> <<<
>>
>> So I'm not into video production myself, but I listen to a number of
>> TechTubers who are into lots of different video workflows.
>>
>> Video production is one of those CPU and GPU intensive jobs that can
>> benefit massively from better hardware.  But I think we have to get
>> specific about the actual jobs when we say "doing video."
>>
>> I think the CPU/GPU intensive part is transcoding the video from one
>> format (like the raw file from your capture device) out to the format (like
>> mp4 or whatever) that you would watch it with on your phone or browser or
>> something.  Also, if you're editing video, you may have to edit and
>> re-render your video multiple times, and each time the rendering time will
>> be commensurate with your hardware investment.   I hope someone who
>> actually does what you're doing will chime in and correct me where I'm
>> wrong.
>>
>> But the TechTubers I frequently listen to try to answer this question a
>> lot, or at least questions that are similar to your question.  So you might
>> look at the build lists from some of these TechTubers for their own rigs,
>> and you can get an idea of the relative performance versus the price tag,
>> and then pick a budget/performance tradeoff that fits for you.
>>
>> Some of my favorite TechTubers (on YouTube) for hardware are Paul's
>> Hardware, Bitwit, JayzTwoCents, LinusTechTips, and many, many others.  Each
>> of these has many hundreds of videos and playlists where you could hear
>> various arguments about hardware selection optimized for video production
>> and gaming.  Paul's Hardware will have many parts lists (called build
>> lists) on pcpartpicker.com optimized for gaming and video production, and
>> watching some of these will help answer your questions.  Here are his saved
>> build lists:
>>
>>  https://pcpartpicker.com/user/paulshardware/saved/
>>
>> As I understand it, transcoding video benefits greatly from more cpu
>> cores, so I think your ryzen 5 or ryzen 7 (or ryzen 9 if that's affordable)
>> will give you an enormous boost from where you are.
>>
>> As far as the GPU choice, I would put the rx5700 as a very entry-level
>> GPU.  If you can spring for a beefier GPU, you'll notice a big
>> improvement.  Again, you video producers correct me where I'm wrong.  AMD
>> GPUs target the entry level up to the mid-range levels of GPU.  For super
>> heavy duty, it's all Nvidia.  But super-heavy is around the $600 and up
>> range.
>>
>>>>> When building a new desktop, what things can/should I do to keep it
>> reasonably quiet?
>> <<<
>>
>> This question is pretty frequently asked, so here's what I can share.
>> First, my hearing is not the best.  I've had lots of exposure to gunfire,
>> explosions and Harleys.  I currently experience tinnitus.  I may not be the
>> best person to answer this question.  :-D   But, here are some ideas.
>>
>> 1) If you use an air cooler for your cpu, you can adjust your fan speeds
>> in the bios to quieter settings.  You'll have to experiment with your
>> temperatures and see how your settings are working.  But you can adjust
>> what is called your "fan curves."  The nicer the motherboard, the more
>> customizable and granular your settings will be.
>>
>> 2) There are cases you can select that are simply quieter than others.
>> Some of them will actually have acoustically absorbent panels that dampen
>> the sound.  Make sure the case has good air flow though, because burning up
>> your CPU or GPU is not worth the noise savings.  Many cases today feature
>> large windows so you can see your blinky lights.  The quietest cases will
>> have fewer such places sound can get out.  But again, the case *has to*
>> breathe.  Temperature is very important.
>>
>> 3) Some people complain about AIO (all in one) water coolers, but I have
>> not had problems with them.  They have worked reliably for at least a year
>> or two, and I've not experienced leaks or extra noise (but I'm kinda deaf
>> too), and they have cooled my overclocked PCs very nicely.  But again, my
>> hearing is... err, you get the idea.
>>
>> 4) Wendell over at Level1Tech recently (Sept 2018) built a box for Linus
>> Torvalds, who is also very sensitive to extra noise.  He apparently likes
>> his PCs extremely quiet.
>> This might be the link I was thinking of:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuDrrFHrhQ
>>
>> Wendell also built a very quiet box for Greg KH recently.  That might be
>> the vid I was thinking of:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37RP9I3_TBo
>>
>> Obviously, these builds are very idealized builds with a large budget, but
>> most of the same principles could be applied to building a budget box that
>> is still quiet.
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM Bob via Ale <ale at ale.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A couple more questions relating to building a desktop.
>>>
>>> 1)  My wife is sensitive to noise, and we're often working in the same
>>> office at home.  She has mentioned that my current=old desktop is noisy.
>>>   Even though I don't notice it unless I think about it, I have to agree.
>>>
>>> When building a new desktop, what things can/should I do to keep it
>>> reasonably quiet?
>>>
>>> 2)  I have to record several hours of video each week.  I'm using
>>> obs-studio, and I think obs-studio has suggested a lower resolution due
>>> to the weak cpu.
>>>
>>> For the new desktop I'm leaning towards a cheap graphics card as
>>> suggested by several along with the ryzen 5 3600 on a B450 motherboard.
>>> (I'm not interested in gaming.)  Is the cheap graphics card still a
>>> reasonable choice if I have to record video?
>>>
>>> BTW, something along the following is what I'm leaning towards building
>>> now:
>>>
>>>>> I tend to think the most "bang for the buck" system today (in my mind)
>>>>> would be a B450 motherboard with a Ryzen 5 3600, 16G RAM at about 3200
>>> or
>>>>> faster, and I would go for an NVMe M.2 SSD at around 500G.  You can
>>> use a
>>>>> cheap video card (about $35) and the case and power supply as your
>>> budget
>>>>> and preference dictates.  Power supplies and cases are a bit more
>>> expensive
>>>>> these days, thanks to COVID-challenged supplies, but memory, ssd's and
>>> CPUs
>>>>> are relatively cheap.  This system would cost you about $550-600 or so,
>>>>> depending on your choices.  One example:
>>>>> https://pcpartpicker.com/user/deepbsd/saved/#view=6tqG3C
>>>
>>> --Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2020-08-02 10:45 p.m., David Jackson wrote:
>>>> I tend to build a lot of systems, so my perspective is influenced by
>>> this
>>>> bias.  But I'm unclear about your priorities.
>>>>
>>>> If you were doing something demanding (say rendering videos or doing
>>> heavy
>>>> computation or competitive gaming or whatever), you would be well
>>> beyond a
>>>> 3rd gen i5 cpu.  Since 3rd gen Intel level of tech seems to suit you
>>> fine,
>>>> it seems to me your performance requirements are rather low.  Another
>>> thing
>>>> I'm curious about is how much change are you willing to tolerate.
>>> Would a
>>>> lot of added performance be a bad thing or a good thing?
>>>>
>>>> I think you might be missing how easy it would be to get a *massive*
>>>> performance upgrade with a relatively slight effort or cost by upgrading
>>>> all your whole architecture.  A LOT has changed since 3rd gen Intel was
>>>> current.  For about the cost in difficulty and dollars in upgrading your
>>>> 3rd gen architecture, you could probably find a more current Ryzen
>>> system
>>>> that would give this massive upgrade.   What has changed a lot very
>>>> recently is that AMD Ryzen normally beats Intel in terms of performance
>>> per
>>>> dollar (bang for the buck) nowadays.  (I'm trying to keep it simple
>>> here.)
>>>> And the surrounding architecture has massively improved as well.
>>> Current
>>>> gen platforms are much more efficient and performant overall than a 3rd
>>> gen
>>>> i5 was.
>>>>
>>>> If you really prefer to "tough it out" on your current architecture, I
>>>> would have to infer that your priority has more to do with "optimizing
>>> the
>>>> last electron out of a potato" as I call it.  There's a certain level of
>>>> pride geeks sometimes get over "doing the most with the least"
>>> technology.
>>>> If that's you, then nevermind.  But it would help to know that "getting
>>> the
>>>> last ounce of performance out of your potato" is in fact a priority.  If
>>>> that's true, there are other layers of complexity that might be of
>>>> interest, such as over clocking and water cooling, but cost and
>>> complexity
>>>> quickly become factors here.  But if that seemed attractive to you, my
>>>> guess is your questions would have been very different.
>>>>
>>>> I tend to think the most "bang for the buck" system today (in my mind)
>>>> would be a B450 motherboard with a Ryzen 5 3600, 16G RAM at about 3200
>>> or
>>>> faster, and I would go for an NVMe M.2 SSD at around 500G.  You can use
>>> a
>>>> cheap video card (about $35) and the case and power supply as your
>>> budget
>>>> and preference dictates.  Power supplies and cases are a bit more
>>> expensive
>>>> these days, thanks to COVID-challenged supplies, but memory, ssd's and
>>> CPUs
>>>> are relatively cheap.  This system would cost you about $550-600 or so,
>>>> depending on your choices.  One example:
>>>> https://pcpartpicker.com/user/deepbsd/saved/#view=6tqG3C
>>>> I wager this system would make you grin each time you sit down at your
>>> PC.
>>>> I'd also wager that the "grin factor" would quickly offset the dollar
>>>> damage.
>>>>
>>>> I would imagine your existing system might fetch $100 on ebay, possibly?
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:16 PM Bob via Ale <ale at ale.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles has me thinking about upgrading my 8 year old lenovo desktop.
>>>>> I'm thinking of increasing memory and installing an ssd.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know much about hardware, so I'm hoping some of you might give
>>>>> me some advice and maybe keep me from doing something stupid.  I'm not
>>> a
>>>>> gamer, so that might make things simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)  Memory.  Currently, there are  two 4 GB ddr3 1600 memory modules in
>>>>> the two memory slots.  There is no graphics card in my desktop and the
>>>>> integrated graphics uses some of the memory.  I can upgrade to two 8 gb
>>>>> ddr3l 1600.  According to crucial.com, the crucial 16gb kit (2 x 8GB)
>>>>> ddr3l-1600 udimm are compatible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe my motherboard can use either ddr3 or ddr3l.  Is there an
>>>>> advantage of one over the other?
>>>>>
>>>>> (The power supply unit has been fine, but it's only 280 watts.  I don't
>>>>> know if that would affect the above choice or not.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Microcenter has a variety of brands:  Neo Forza, G. skills ripjaw,
>>>>> crucial, ....  Are there brands to avoid?  Are there brands that you'd
>>>>> recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2)  ssd.  This seems more complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 4 empty pci express slots---one is x16 and the others x1.  I
>>>>> do not believe that the motherboard supports pcie ssd.  The motherboard
>>>>> does not have mSATA or m.2 slots.  So pcie ssd seems to be impossible.
>>>>> (I don't know what I'd ever use these slots for.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The chipset on the motherboard only supports SATA at 3.0 gb/s.  There
>>>>> are 3 SATA ports and one e-SATA port.  (There has been no update to the
>>>>> bios/uefi firmware.)
>>>>>
>>>>> One SATA port is connected to the optical drive, and the other two SATA
>>>>> ports are connected to the two 1TB HDDs Both drives have plenty of free
>>>>> space.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know why I get slightly different info for the following.  When
>>>>> I execute "sudo hdparm -I /dev/sda | grep SATA", the result is:
>>>>>
>>>>>          Transport:          Serial, SATA Rev 3.0
>>>>>
>>>>> but on /dev/sdb, the result is:
>>>>>
>>>>> Transport:          Serial, SATA 1.0a, SATA II Extensions, SATA Rev
>>> 2.5,
>>>>> SATA Rev 2.6, SATA Rev 3.0
>>>>>
>>>>> The e-SATA port is connected to a usm hot-swappable bay where I'm
>>>>> supposed to be able to plug in a portable SATA drive.  The connector is
>>>>> supposed to be a standard SATA connector.  I have never used this bay
>>> so
>>>>> far.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like I could either purchase an external SATA ssd and plug it
>>>>> into the bay.  I don't know if I would have troubles booting from that
>>>>> drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, I could remove one of the HDDs and put the SSD into either
>>>>> /dev/sda or /dev/sdb.  Presumably, I could put the HDD that was removed
>>>>> into an enclosure allowing it to be placed into the swappable bay on
>>> the
>>>>> rare occasions that it was needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)  Does it seem better to remove an HDD and put the ssd into that
>>> space
>>>>> vs. putting the ssd into the swappable bay?  Does it make a difference
>>>>> if the ssd is put into the drive where /dev/sda is or /dev/sdb?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2)  Any suggestions on how large the ssd should be?
>>>>>
>>>>> 3)  Are there brands to avoid or brands that you would recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>> --Bob
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ale mailing list
>>>>> Ale at ale.org
>>>>> https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
> 
> 
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