[ale] a quick test of web site stupid

Jay Lozier jslozier at gmail.com
Thu Mar 7 10:41:06 EST 2013 

On 03/07/2013 10:26 AM, Chesser.Damon wrote:
>
> So, like a PA vs a Dr.  I would not be opposed to that.
>
> Damon at damtek.com
>
Essentially, yes.

> *From:*ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *John Pilman
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:46 AM
> *To:* Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
> *Subject:* Re: [ale] a quick test of web site stupid
>
> Damon, I know that talk of registration can lead to that kind of 
> apprehension, but that is not the way professional registration works. 
> In my engineering office of 25 highly qualified and very productive 
> people, only one is a registered engineer in Georgia (not me). 
>  Similarly, most medical treatment is carried out by people who are 
> not board certified doctors.  Whatever else professional registration 
> does, it will not remove you from your job.
>
>
> ...John
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Chesser.Damon 
> <Damon.Chesser at suntrust.com <mailto:Damon.Chesser at suntrust.com>> wrote:
>
> I find the idea of REQUIRING by law, a certain level of proficiency as 
> determined by minimal educational standards and test results 
> abhorrent.  I hold no degree.  I do the work.  100% self educated.  
> You just legislated me to the unemployment line.  Just what we need, 
> MORE government layers to comply with.
>
> How about this, if business A is stupid and hires stupid people and 
> has a security breach, all those customers can move to business B 
> which was not stupid.  Business A has self regulated themselves out of 
> the market or self regulated themselves out of stupid.
>
> Damon at damtek.com <mailto:Damon at damtek.com>
>
> *From:*ale-bounces at ale.org <mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org> 
> [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org <mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org>] *On Behalf 
> Of *Jay Lozier
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:06 PM
>
>
> *To:* ale at ale.org <mailto:ale at ale.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ale] a quick test of web site stupid
>
> On 03/06/2013 04:44 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Matt Hessel <matt.hessel at gmail.com
>     <mailto:matt.hessel at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I see the idea behind the certification, but in practice that
>     seems mostly useful to employers when hiring individuals with
>     little on their resume.
>
> This is different than a certification because there would be 
> design/development standards required that are vendor independent.
>
> It's not for employers. It's for lawyers and judges to use as a 
> bludgeon to make companies use good practices is coding for public 
> consumption. If company FOO is in software development, and they 
> provide code for banking, they MUST have a certified banking code 
> engineer on staff and sign off on the code or else that code is not 
> legal to use for banking. Or they can pay a banking code engineering 
> firm to evaluate their code and sign off if it suits the engineers 
> standards.
>
> If mom-n-pop company hires a developer to put up a web site, they 
> don't need a certified engineer to approve anything UNTIL they add 
> something like shopping site with credit card stuff. If their website 
> gets defaced because they hired an idiot, that's their problem. If 
> their website gets hacked and credit card data is stolen, then it's a 
> criminal offense on them for deploying code that was not approved by a 
> professional engineer. I see drop-in certified modules for various 
> platforms to do this.
>
> This would help PHB inline; just tell them they will have an all 
> expense paid multi-year vacation in the prison system.
>
>
> I can't build a bridge for public use until I am a certified, tested 
> and passed Professional Engineer. As a PE, it's MY name on the line 
> for the stuff I sign off on. So a PE won't approve crap. Is it a 
> perfect system? Nope. But it keeps slick talking idiots from building 
> bridges and practicing law and medicine.
>
> Legally, there are slick idiots who manage to fool people from time to 
> time.
>
>
> A person who passes a PE exam doesn't need much else on their resume. 
> It's not possible to pass without mountains of knowledge and/or 
> experience. There is already a Professional Software Engineer license 
> process. What is needed is to add HIPPA and Banking modules (or more 
> generically - data security) and then require that places that use 
> software in these fields have X years to be using certified, compliant 
> software or they get shut down, fined out the ass or both for repeated 
> violations. "Market forces" can't fix this crap. It's like why we all 
> drive on the right hand side of the road. Someone decided we have to 
> clean up the mess and made it happen.
>
> like i need another project....
>
> Being from another engineering field you need the PE to review and 
> sign off on the design. Also, for a PE it is a multi-step process  of 
> tests and experience. I believe there is an education requirement that 
> you must have a physical science or engineering (BS level or higher) 
> to be allowed to take any exam.  You must pass the EIT - 
> Engineer-in-Training exam for a specific engineering discipline 
> (Civil, Chemical, Electrical, etc), then you must work in the field 
> for several years before you can even take the PE exam in the same 
> field. I believe there are continuing education requirements for a PE 
> license.
>
> What I have seen is the PE requires the vendor to submit all 
> design/load calculations for review with the drawings and 
> documentation. The PE must approve the submission before you have 
> permission to proceed; there might be a couple of rounds of 
> submissions before approval. Competent vendors know what is needed and 
> often will only have the finalize the details for the submission.
>
> -- 
> Jay Lozier
> jslozier at gmail.com  <mailto:jslozier at gmail.com>
>
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-- 
Jay Lozier
jslozier at gmail.com

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