[ale] [OT] Liberties

Thu Aug 22 17:06:56 EDT 2013

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-japanwarn/

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Lightner, Jeff <JLightner at water.com> wrote:

> A few points:
> By the time we dropped the bomb (Aug 1945) Italy then Germany (May 1945)
> had already been defeated.
>
> We actually dropped two nuclear bombs not one.    We probably didn't drop
> a third mainly because we didn't have a third available yet.
>
> There are those that argue against the logic of preventing worse
> casualties in high numbers as a reason for dropping the bombs.   They would
> tell you it was dropped mainly because the Japanese being Asian were seen
> as less than human and we'd never have dropped it in Europe.  It is a
> matter of record that the US spent a lot of time studying the effects after
> they dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though they'd done
> test blasts ahead of time.  I personally am not in the camp that believes
> this but note is so you can be aware that it isn't just current political
> theory that has opposing views.
>
> Wikipedia is over a great source of information but just remember:
> a) Its authors are anyone and anyone will post "facts" colored by their
> own perceptions and opinions.
> b) It can be (and has been changed) to fit misstatements and outright lies
> easily.  (Usually it gets changed back but you always have to be aware what
> you're reading at this moment could have been posted just before you read
> it.)
>
> I remind you of the Sarah Palin misstatements that caused someone to
> change Wikipedia to show she was correct:
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fsarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6&ei=bngWUqv1HOf62gXcnIC4Cw&usg=AFQjCNG_lcuGQTcJK51j-3s7qmVtkwVWJA&bvm=bv.51156542,d.eWU
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of Ron
> Frazier (ALE)
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:08 PM
> To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
> Subject: Re: [ale] [OT] Liberties
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> We could obviously banter about politics forever.  Probably never see eye
> to eye.  I did want to post a reply to the statements quoted below however.
>
> War is, by definition, a hideous, disgusting, horrifying, ugly business.
>  It is to be avoided if at all possible.  However, evil conquering people
> and regimes occasionally force good people into war.
>
> IF you HAVE to go to war, lets be real, the Military's job is primarily to
> kill people and break things.  That's why we have them.  That's why we pay
> them.  If you have to kill people and break things, you want to do that as
> efficiently as possible, as quickly as possible, and get out with minimal
> casualties to yourself and your allies.  You want to remove your enemy's
> ability and will to make further war.  There are rules, even in war, which
> is why we have the Geneva convention, etc.
>
> In regards to dropping a 10 story building from 5 miles away, etc., when
> we HAVE to go to war, and if you're sure you have to take out that
> building, then that's a far better way to do it than to have our troops and
> allies in there getting killed.
>
> When we have to go to war, I'm VERY glad that we usually have superior
> equipment and training to the enemy.  I am never proud of war itself, but I
> am proud that our soldiers can, when they have to, make war effectively and
> kick ass and get out.
>
> According to Wikipedia, the dropping of the atomic bombs killed 200,000
> people, mostly civilians.  That is, without a doubt, terrible.  However,
> those actions helped bring a much quicker end to WW II, put an end to the
> evil conquering regimes of Hitler, Hirohito, and Mussolini - which might
> very well have enslaved us and / or our allies had they continued, and,
> very likely saved millions of lives had the war continued or had we
> actually lost the war.
>
> Also according to Wikipedia, the allies suffered deaths of 61 million in
> the war.  Dropping the atomic bombs likely kept that number from going much
> higher, likely far more than 200,000 higher.
>
> Was killing 200,000 people terrible?  Yes.  Was it preferable to the
> likely alternatives?  Yes.
>
> In regard to killing civilians, since we now have the means of being more
> selective in our attacks, we try to avoid killing "non combatants"
> where possible.  However, the civilians are recruited (or required) to
> become combatants though, so even that's not so simple.
>
> I will say this.  In the modern world, where all major players have nukes,
> and H bombs, and were a full scale escalation could make large parts of the
> planet uninhabitable, that scenario is very much to be avoided.  But, the
> evil conquering enslaving regimes are still there.
> Their names are different.  Their locations may be different.  But their
> desire to enslave or destroy anyone else they can has never changed, and it
> never will.  We have to be prepared to face and repel these threats, or all
> those people that have ever died to gain and preserve our freedoms will
> have died in vain.
>
> "Speak softly and carry a big stick ..." - Teddy Roosevelt
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Bomb
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_roosevelt
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention
>
> PS  I'm not a history expert nor a history buff, and all this was before
> my time.  Google is your friend and Wikipedia is usually your friend.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ron
>
>
> -snip-
>
> On 8/22/2013 12:50 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
> > No carry-able number of fully automatic weapons will match up against
> > Apache attack helicopters with rockets, tanks with the ability to drop
> > a 10 story building at 5 miles and the nuclear weapon trump card is
> > _still_ held by the only government to ever use nuclear weapons
> > against a civilian population.
>
> -snip-
>
>
> --
>
> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very
> quickly.)
>
> Ron Frazier
> 770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
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