[ale] [OT] Liberties

Thu Aug 22 16:49:00 EDT 2013

A few points:
By the time we dropped the bomb (Aug 1945) Italy then Germany (May 1945) had already been defeated.

We actually dropped two nuclear bombs not one.    We probably didn't drop a third mainly because we didn't have a third available yet.

There are those that argue against the logic of preventing worse casualties in high numbers as a reason for dropping the bombs.   They would tell you it was dropped mainly because the Japanese being Asian were seen as less than human and we'd never have dropped it in Europe.  It is a matter of record that the US spent a lot of time studying the effects after they dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though they'd done test blasts ahead of time.  I personally am not in the camp that believes this but note is so you can be aware that it isn't just current political theory that has opposing views.

Wikipedia is over a great source of information but just remember:
a) Its authors are anyone and anyone will post "facts" colored by their own perceptions and opinions.
b) It can be (and has been changed) to fit misstatements and outright lies easily.  (Usually it gets changed back but you always have to be aware what you're reading at this moment could have been posted just before you read it.)

I remind you of the Sarah Palin misstatements that caused someone to change Wikipedia to show she was correct:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fsarah-palin-fans-try-to-rewrite-wikipedia-history-of-paul-reveres-ride-2011-6&ei=bngWUqv1HOf62gXcnIC4Cw&usg=AFQjCNG_lcuGQTcJK51j-3s7qmVtkwVWJA&bvm=bv.51156542,d.eWU

-----Original Message-----
From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of Ron Frazier (ALE)
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:08 PM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] [OT] Liberties

Hi Jim,

We could obviously banter about politics forever.  Probably never see eye to eye.  I did want to post a reply to the statements quoted below however.

War is, by definition, a hideous, disgusting, horrifying, ugly business.  It is to be avoided if at all possible.  However, evil conquering people and regimes occasionally force good people into war.

IF you HAVE to go to war, lets be real, the Military's job is primarily to kill people and break things.  That's why we have them.  That's why we pay them.  If you have to kill people and break things, you want to do that as efficiently as possible, as quickly as possible, and get out with minimal casualties to yourself and your allies.  You want to remove your enemy's ability and will to make further war.  There are rules, even in war, which is why we have the Geneva convention, etc.

In regards to dropping a 10 story building from 5 miles away, etc., when we HAVE to go to war, and if you're sure you have to take out that building, then that's a far better way to do it than to have our troops and allies in there getting killed.

When we have to go to war, I'm VERY glad that we usually have superior equipment and training to the enemy.  I am never proud of war itself, but I am proud that our soldiers can, when they have to, make war effectively and kick ass and get out.

According to Wikipedia, the dropping of the atomic bombs killed 200,000 people, mostly civilians.  That is, without a doubt, terrible.  However, those actions helped bring a much quicker end to WW II, put an end to the evil conquering regimes of Hitler, Hirohito, and Mussolini - which might very well have enslaved us and / or our allies had they continued, and, very likely saved millions of lives had the war continued or had we actually lost the war.

Also according to Wikipedia, the allies suffered deaths of 61 million in the war.  Dropping the atomic bombs likely kept that number from going much higher, likely far more than 200,000 higher.

Was killing 200,000 people terrible?  Yes.  Was it preferable to the likely alternatives?  Yes.

In regard to killing civilians, since we now have the means of being more selective in our attacks, we try to avoid killing "non combatants"
where possible.  However, the civilians are recruited (or required) to become combatants though, so even that's not so simple.

I will say this.  In the modern world, where all major players have nukes, and H bombs, and were a full scale escalation could make large parts of the planet uninhabitable, that scenario is very much to be avoided.  But, the evil conquering enslaving regimes are still there.
Their names are different.  Their locations may be different.  But their desire to enslave or destroy anyone else they can has never changed, and it never will.  We have to be prepared to face and repel these threats, or all those people that have ever died to gain and preserve our freedoms will have died in vain.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick ..." - Teddy Roosevelt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Bomb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_roosevelt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention

PS  I'm not a history expert nor a history buff, and all this was before my time.  Google is your friend and Wikipedia is usually your friend.

Sincerely,

Ron

-snip-

On 8/22/2013 12:50 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
> No carry-able number of fully automatic weapons will match up against
> Apache attack helicopters with rockets, tanks with the ability to drop
> a 10 story building at 5 miles and the nuclear weapon trump card is
> _still_ held by the only government to ever use nuclear weapons
> against a civilian population.

-snip-

--

(PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)

Ron Frazier
770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
linuxdude AT techstarship.com
Litecoin: LZzAJu9rZEWzALxDhAHnWLRvybVAVgwTh3
Bitcoin: 15s3aLVsxm8EuQvT8gUDw3RWqvuY9hPGUU

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo

Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer

---------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
----------------------------------