[ale] Back on topic... Servlets and NetBeans and .jars, oh my!

Sun Jul 4 10:48:30 EDT 2010

As a teacher of "thinking like a programmer" and the supposedly simple
Python language, I agree that tutorials are not the way to go to
understand the ecosystem.  Not even in Python.  
People who understand the technologies and have been working in the area
have developed their own handle(s) on this, I assume.  
I recently got a book on the use of Eclipse, which was very helpful.
Eclipse, being the IDE that does everything and nothing, has always
seemed like it should be useful to new programmers, but it is so
overwhelming that a new programmer without guidance (or meself) cannot
begin).  I still am working with Kate (Kate, the editor).  There is a
300-post thread about which IDE is best on a python list I follow.  This
is almost silly.  

I would be ecstatic to act as editor of a text about how to find your
feet in the Java ecosystem, if y'all would wish to collaborate on
something of this nature.  We could publish it off of the ale web site
if you want, and help generations of Java developers.

Wolf

PS
It seems like there are four main sections to this issue:
1. Developer environment for stand-alone applications (where most
schools put their students) - Almost useless in the real world.
2. Developer environment for web-applications - Including local database
setup, and application server set-up
3. Deployment issues.  What is different about deployed web apps and
testing environment apps. (Glassfish? Tomcat? why one or the other??)
4. When is one method of solving a problem indicated and when is some
other method indicated.

The landscape thing can point to tutorials which describe the "how-to"
once we understand the "Why" and "Where it fits" parts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com>
Reply-to: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! <ale at ale.org>
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! <ale at ale.org>
Subject: Re: [ale] Servlets and NetBeans and .jars, oh my!
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:22:24 -0400

But java is self-documenting! All you need to do is run your working
source code through....

yep! it's self-referencing closed loop process - to learn java is to
know java is to learn java is...

It's like the watch in the movie "Somewhere in time" with Cristopher
Reeves. At a conference, an old woman gives him a pocket watch. He goes
back in time and gives that watch to her younger self. Who made the
watch?

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Dylan Northrup <ale at doc-x.net> wrote:

        And it also seems that, whatever you're trying to do, there's
        not a good, piece by piece tutorial for putting things together
        a bit at a time.  The HOWTOs and tutorials I've seen always seem
        to have a step that goes something like the following:

           Step ???: Download the following jar files: <insert names of
        several libraries author finds useful>.  Now type out the code
        below and magical stuff will happen because all the hard work is
        done by the libraries you've downloaded in the trivial case I've
        outlined below that doesn't cover what you want to be able to
        do.

        Ok, I admit, many times the author is not straightforward about
        admitting that last bit, but it almost always seems to be the
        case. It's not that I'm against useful libraries, but I've not
        found an author that a) introduces their libs one at a time, b)
        gives a thorough description of the libraries they're using,
        what the specific benefits are, c) provides more than one
        scenario for the libraries they use or d) any combination of
        these.

        So, if you're trying to do exactly what the HOWTO author is
        doing, you're good to go.  If you want to do something else, the
        HOWTO doesn't cover it and, depending on what set of libraries
        you've installed, you may have to jump through an enormous
        number of hoops to be able to do something that seems like a
        simple expansion on what the HOWTO covered, but isn't because
        the methods you need aren't implemented in the libraries.
        </rant>

        If someone can point me to the documentation or books I've been
        unable to find that explain things clearly, incrementally and
        thoroughly (more than one or tow use cases), I would be
        eternally grateful.

        On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, James Sumners
        <james.sumners at gmail.com> wrote:

                I agree. It seems to me that this answer is really
                "depends on what
                you're trying to do." In my case, I have to learn Java
                (the easiest
                part) + Libraries + Tomcat + whatever else is needed to
                run/administer
                my portal. 

                On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Dylan Northrup
                <ale at doc-x.net> wrote:
                > Actually, I think that'd be precisely the wrong place
                to start.  The
                > tutorials there are presented on specific
                technologies, but are not put into
                > any overall context and there is nothing to tie the
                tutorials together or
                > show when and where they're supposed to be used.  I
                know this because I am
                > in the same position as Pete, have been looking for a
                similar "Guide to the
                > Java Ecosystem" and found Sun's Java tutorials to be
                utterly lacking in that
                > respect.  Sun's site is great for learning how to
                implement the specific
                > technologies, but not on why you'd want to implement
                those technologies,
                > IMO.  YMMV.

                --
                James Sumners
                http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/

                "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power
                attracts
                pathological personalities. It is not that power
                corrupts but that it
                is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a
                tendency to become
                drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly
                addicted."

                Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
                CH:D 59

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        -- 
        Dylan Northrup
        "Adversity is just change we haven't adapted ourselves to yet."
         - Aimee Mullins

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-- 
-- 
James P. Kinney III
Actively in pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness 
Doing pretty well on all 3 pursuits    

 Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
   Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992 

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