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As a teacher of "thinking like a programmer" and the supposedly simple Python language, I agree that tutorials are not the way to go to understand the ecosystem. Not even in Python. <BR>
People who understand the technologies and have been working in the area have developed their own handle(s) on this, I assume. <BR>
I recently got a book on the use of Eclipse, which was very helpful. Eclipse, being the IDE that does everything and nothing, has always seemed like it should be useful to new programmers, but it is so overwhelming that a new programmer without guidance (or meself) cannot begin). I still am working with Kate (Kate, the editor). There is a 300-post thread about which IDE is best on a python list I follow. This is almost silly. <BR>
<BR>
I would be ecstatic to act as editor of a text about how to find your feet in the Java ecosystem, if y'all would wish to collaborate on something of this nature. We could publish it off of the ale web site if you want, and help generations of Java developers.<BR>
<BR>
Wolf<BR>
<BR>
PS<BR>
It seems like there are four main sections to this issue:<BR>
1. Developer environment for stand-alone applications (where most schools put their students) - Almost useless in the real world.<BR>
2. Developer environment for web-applications - Including local database setup, and application server set-up<BR>
3. Deployment issues. What is different about deployed web apps and testing environment apps. (Glassfish? Tomcat? why one or the other??)<BR>
4. When is one method of solving a problem indicated and when is some other method indicated.<BR>
<BR>
The landscape thing can point to tutorials which describe the "how-to" once we understand the "Why" and "Where it fits" parts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From</B>: Jim Kinney <<A HREF="mailto:Jim%20Kinney%20%3cjim.kinney@gmail.com%3e">jim.kinney@gmail.com</A>><BR>
<B>Reply-to</B>: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! <ale@ale.org><BR>
<B>To</B>: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! <<A HREF="mailto:Atlanta%20Linux%20Enthusiasts%20-%20Yes!%20We%20run%20Linux!%20%3cale@ale.org%3e">ale@ale.org</A>><BR>
<B>Subject</B>: Re: [ale] Servlets and NetBeans and .jars, oh my!<BR>
<B>Date</B>: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:22:24 -0400<BR>
<BR>
But java is self-documenting! All you need to do is run your working source code through....<BR>
<BR>
yep! it's self-referencing closed loop process - to learn java is to know java is to learn java is...<BR>
<BR>
It's like the watch in the movie "Somewhere in time" with Cristopher Reeves. At a conference, an old woman gives him a pocket watch. He goes back in time and gives that watch to her younger self. Who made the watch?<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Dylan Northrup <<A HREF="mailto:ale@doc-x.net">ale@doc-x.net</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
And it also seems that, whatever you're trying to do, there's not a good, piece by piece tutorial for putting things together a bit at a time. The HOWTOs and tutorials I've seen always seem to have a step that goes something like the following:<BR>
<BR>
Step ???: Download the following jar files: <insert names of several libraries author finds useful>. Now type out the code below and magical stuff will happen because all the hard work is done by the libraries you've downloaded in the trivial case I've outlined below that doesn't cover what you want to be able to do.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I admit, many times the author is not straightforward about admitting that last bit, but it almost always seems to be the case. It's not that I'm against useful libraries, but I've not found an author that a) introduces their libs one at a time, b) gives a thorough description of the libraries they're using, what the specific benefits are, c) provides more than one scenario for the libraries they use or d) any combination of these.<BR>
<BR>
So, if you're trying to do exactly what the HOWTO author is doing, you're good to go. If you want to do something else, the HOWTO doesn't cover it and, depending on what set of libraries you've installed, you may have to jump through an enormous number of hoops to be able to do something that seems like a simple expansion on what the HOWTO covered, but isn't because the methods you need aren't implemented in the libraries.<BR>
</rant><BR>
<BR>
If someone can point me to the documentation or books I've been unable to find that explain things clearly, incrementally and thoroughly (more than one or tow use cases), I would be eternally grateful.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, James Sumners <<A HREF="mailto:james.sumners@gmail.com">james.sumners@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. It seems to me that this answer is really "depends on what<BR>
you're trying to do." In my case, I have to learn Java (the easiest<BR>
part) + Libraries + Tomcat + whatever else is needed to run/administer<BR>
my portal. <BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Dylan Northrup <<A HREF="mailto:ale@doc-x.net">ale@doc-x.net</A>> wrote:<BR>
> Actually, I think that'd be precisely the wrong place to start. The<BR>
> tutorials there are presented on specific technologies, but are not put into<BR>
> any overall context and there is nothing to tie the tutorials together or<BR>
> show when and where they're supposed to be used. I know this because I am<BR>
> in the same position as Pete, have been looking for a similar "Guide to the<BR>
> Java Ecosystem" and found Sun's Java tutorials to be utterly lacking in that<BR>
> respect. Sun's site is great for learning how to implement the specific<BR>
> technologies, but not on why you'd want to implement those technologies,<BR>
> IMO. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
James Sumners<BR>
<A HREF="http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/">http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/</A><BR>
<BR>
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts<BR>
pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it<BR>
is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become<BR>
drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."<BR>
<BR>
Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)<BR>
CH:D 59<BR>
<BR>
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</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-- <BR>
Dylan Northrup<BR>
"Adversity is just change we haven't adapted ourselves to yet."<BR>
- Aimee Mullins<BR>
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<BR>
-- <BR>
-- <BR>
James P. Kinney III<BR>
Actively in pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness <BR>
Doing pretty well on all 3 pursuits <BR>
<BR>
Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.<BR>
Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992 <BR>
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