[ale] OT: H1B

Wed Dec 18 11:43:04 EST 2002

Finally! That's one law I'm very thankful for ;-).

Charles Shapiro said:
> Aha. Godwins Law has been invoked. You can all go home now.
>
> Godwin's Law (prov.  [Usenet]):
>
> As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a
> comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a
> tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is
> over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost
> whatever argument was in progress.  Godwin's Law thus guarantees
> the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
>
> -- CHS
>
> On Wed, 2002-12-18 at 03:54, George Johnson wrote:
>> Negative on that human approach.  We humans just tend to make a mess
>> of things.  National boundaries are a good thing.  What would have
>> happened if Hitler were to come to power under some sort of a one
>> world
>> government?  Who would step up to take him out?
>>
>> I believe in BORDERS, LANGUAGE, CULTURE.  I have no problems with
>> others that differ from mine.  In fact I am one of the curious types
>> that is always interested in learning how others live, their religion,
>> etc.
>>
>> gj
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ale-admin at ale.org [mailto:ale-admin at ale.org] On Behalf Of
>> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:13 PM
>> To: 'ale at ale.org'
>> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
>>
>> I don't necessarily agree with you on bad code. There is no proof
>> required,
>> other than the fact that, lots of software companies has established
>> R&D offices in India, including Mocrosoft, employing thousands of
>> software engineers. If we follow your argument, it is a pity that
>> thousands of software companies have employed hundreds and thousands
>> H1B workers in US
>> alone. In my experience I have seen H1B people developing complex
>> projects
>> successfully. H1B workers specifically coming from China and India has
>> to
>> undergo numerous difficulties in order to come to US and work. In some
>> cases, I can see approach and attitude problems. The tendency of
>> displaying
>> such chrascterstics could be slightly high because of their education,
>> and
>> bought up issues. In any case I would like to request you to
>> appreciate the
>> way we come all the way to work for US.
>>
>> Given that, as a H1-B worker, I would never support a native citizen
>> loosing
>> a job given other things same. I support strict rules, so that no
>> native citizen is deprived of work with out a valid reason. If I were
>> a native citizen, I would feel the same. I do not support H1B's paying
>> millions of
>> dollars in social security and medicare without getting a benefit out
>> of it.
>> Note that, I agree paying Federal and state Taxes.
>>
>> However, things are not the same. The goal for humanity is to trancend
>> national boundaries and become truly international with human
>> approach.
>>
>> cheers.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:56 PM
>> To: ale at ale.org
>> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
>>
>>
>> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
>> > I agree with you partly and don;t agree if you apply to all the H1B
>> workers.
>> > Do you mean to say all the native citizens code is better than
>> H1B's.
>>
>> In my personal experience, the hibs did not write decent code.  Now I
>> can point you to US citizens who write lousy code, but overall, the
>> quality of programming by US Citizens has been much better then that
>> of  hibs.  That is based on personal experience, and is in no way a
>> scientific measure.
>>
>> Never say always.  No, I'm saying that I've had the opportunity to
>> work  with a good number of hibs primarily from China and India.  I
>> can not  select one of them and tell you they write good code.
>>
>> I
>> > think the point is that, in the boom time, we can see people having
>> three
>> > months experience doing coding for mission critical applications.
>>
>> That has nothing to do with how well you write your code.  Poor coding
>>  constructs are an indication of inappropriate training/education, or
>> lack of concern for the proper approach.
>>
>> This is
>> > because of the boom and the oppurtunities created by the economy. If
>> you
>> can
>> > see the accomplishment of some of the H1B's in the software, it is
>> commendable. The guy who designed PIII is a H1B worker. There are so
>> many
>> > examples like this. It is a matter of training to get perfection.
>>
>> That is one example, of which you've provided no proof.
>>
>> > (By the way, I meant plastic. I am bad in typing not in spelling.).
>>
>> Your bad typing was very consistent in that posting, which is quite
>> unusual.
>>
>> cheers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:22 AM
>> > To: ale at ale.org
>> > Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
>> >
>> >
>> > A couple flaws in your assessment.  The first is that if all the
>> work
>> is
>> > farmed out to h1b or overseas, then all these un-employed folks will
>>  have no cash to purchase anything from these companies that are
>> saving
>>
>> > all this money by using the cheaper labor.
>> >
>> > Secondly, there are US Citizens who are taking the jobs at the lower
>>  rates in order to maintain employment.  It's unfortunate, because
>> the  winners are the corporations, not the citizens, not the h1bs.
>> >
>> > Further, my personal experiences with h1b/contractors (that are of
>> chinese, indian origin is), they are poorly trained in software
>> development disciplines.  The code is terrible.  Inconsistent
>> formatting, poor logical solutions, never documented.  Just plain
>> sloppy.
>> >
>> > This is also exacerbated by the usual lack of command of the spoken
>> language.  The code is hard to follow and you can't understand the
>> guy
>>
>> > who wrote it.
>> >
>> > No offense, but it is apparent by your posting that English is not
>> your
>> > native tongue.  You must understand that this comes through in your
>> work
>> > as well.  For example, you use the word platic a number of times in
>> your
>> > posting.  I assume you meant plastic, but I'm not sure of that.  I'm
>>  pretty sure this is not simply a typo as you did it at least 3
>> times  this way.
>> >
>> > I think you're correct, in that there is a change coming, but all
>> things
>> > are cyclic.  It's just a matter of time until we see how much damage
>>  this approach does to the overall economy.
>> >
>> > ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Hi,
>> >>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no option left except to
>> brings H1
>> >>and also outsource the work. Let us see the reasons behind the
>> argument.
>> >>Europe is already having good software engineering background.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
>>
>> The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
>> Think about it...
>>
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