[ale] OT: H1B

Charles Shapiro charles.shapiro at nubridges.com
Wed Dec 18 11:14:21 EST 2002 

Aha. Godwins Law has been invoked. You can all go home now.

Godwin's Law (prov.  [Usenet]):

As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a
comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a
tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is
over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost
whatever argument was in progress.  Godwin's Law thus guarantees
the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

-- CHS

On Wed, 2002-12-18 at 03:54, George Johnson wrote:
> Negative on that human approach.  We humans just tend to make a mess of
> things.  National boundaries are a good thing.  What would have happened
> if Hitler were to come to power under some sort of a one world
> government?  Who would step up to take him out?
> 
> I believe in BORDERS, LANGUAGE, CULTURE.  I have no problems with others
> that differ from mine.  In fact I am one of the curious types that is
> always interested in learning how others live, their religion, etc.
> 
> gj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ale-admin at ale.org [mailto:ale-admin at ale.org] On Behalf Of
> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:13 PM
> To: 'ale at ale.org'
> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with you on bad code. There is no proof
> required,
> other than the fact that, lots of software companies has established R&D
> offices in India, including Mocrosoft, employing thousands of software
> engineers. If we follow your argument, it is a pity that thousands of
> software companies have employed hundreds and thousands H1B workers in
> US
> alone. In my experience I have seen H1B people developing complex
> projects
> successfully. H1B workers specifically coming from China and India has
> to
> undergo numerous difficulties in order to come to US and work. In some
> cases, I can see approach and attitude problems. The tendency of
> displaying
> such chrascterstics could be slightly high because of their education,
> and
> bought up issues. In any case I would like to request you to appreciate
> the
> way we come all the way to work for US.
> 
> Given that, as a H1-B worker, I would never support a native citizen
> loosing
> a job given other things same. I support strict rules, so that no native
> citizen is deprived of work with out a valid reason. If I were a native
> citizen, I would feel the same. I do not support H1B's paying millions
> of
> dollars in social security and medicare without getting a benefit out of
> it.
> Note that, I agree paying Federal and state Taxes.
> 
> However, things are not the same. The goal for humanity is to trancend
> national boundaries and become truly international with human approach.
> 
> cheers.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:56 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
> > I agree with you partly and don;t agree if you apply to all the H1B
> workers.
> > Do you mean to say all the native citizens code is better than H1B's.
> 
> In my personal experience, the hibs did not write decent code.  Now I 
> can point you to US citizens who write lousy code, but overall, the 
> quality of programming by US Citizens has been much better then that of 
> hibs.  That is based on personal experience, and is in no way a 
> scientific measure.
> 
> Never say always.  No, I'm saying that I've had the opportunity to work 
> with a good number of hibs primarily from China and India.  I can not 
> select one of them and tell you they write good code.
> 
> I
> > think the point is that, in the boom time, we can see people having
> three
> > months experience doing coding for mission critical applications.
> 
> That has nothing to do with how well you write your code.  Poor coding 
> constructs are an indication of inappropriate training/education, or 
> lack of concern for the proper approach.
> 
> This is
> > because of the boom and the oppurtunities created by the economy. If
> you
> can
> > see the accomplishment of some of the H1B's in the software, it is
> > commendable. The guy who designed PIII is a H1B worker. There are so
> many
> > examples like this. It is a matter of training to get perfection. 
> 
> That is one example, of which you've provided no proof.
> 
> > (By the way, I meant plastic. I am bad in typing not in spelling.).
> 
> Your bad typing was very consistent in that posting, which is quite
> unusual.
> 
> cheers.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:22 AM
> > To: ale at ale.org
> > Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> > 
> > 
> > A couple flaws in your assessment.  The first is that if all the work
> is 
> > farmed out to h1b or overseas, then all these un-employed folks will 
> > have no cash to purchase anything from these companies that are saving
> 
> > all this money by using the cheaper labor.
> > 
> > Secondly, there are US Citizens who are taking the jobs at the lower 
> > rates in order to maintain employment.  It's unfortunate, because the 
> > winners are the corporations, not the citizens, not the h1bs.
> > 
> > Further, my personal experiences with h1b/contractors (that are of 
> > chinese, indian origin is), they are poorly trained in software 
> > development disciplines.  The code is terrible.  Inconsistent 
> > formatting, poor logical solutions, never documented.  Just plain
> sloppy.
> > 
> > This is also exacerbated by the usual lack of command of the spoken 
> > language.  The code is hard to follow and you can't understand the guy
> 
> > who wrote it.
> > 
> > No offense, but it is apparent by your posting that English is not
> your 
> > native tongue.  You must understand that this comes through in your
> work 
> > as well.  For example, you use the word platic a number of times in
> your 
> > posting.  I assume you meant plastic, but I'm not sure of that.  I'm 
> > pretty sure this is not simply a typo as you did it at least 3 times 
> > this way.
> > 
> > I think you're correct, in that there is a change coming, but all
> things 
> > are cyclic.  It's just a matter of time until we see how much damage 
> > this approach does to the overall economy.
> > 
> > ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
> > 
> >>Hi,
> >>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no option left except to
> brings H1
> >>and also outsource the work. Let us see the reasons behind the
> argument.
> >>Europe is already having good software engineering background. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
> 
> The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
> Think about it...
> 
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