[ale] OT: H1B

Tue Dec 17 15:44:50 EST 2002

OMG

http://sedac.ciesin.org/plue/gpw/index.html?main.html&2

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
To: ale at ale.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 3:40 PM
To: ale at ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B

Mazukna, Thomas wrote:
> I do not appreciate you blamin everybody who was not born on US soil.

Where is it that I lay such blame???

> Remember you ancestors where in the same boat some time ago in which a
bunch
> of H1Bs/imigrants are now
> Take a look at your history. Who built this country?

I am well aware of my country's history and where I come from.  The 
bottom line is, there's no more room folks.  I'm doing my part, I've got 
one child.  Would I have liked to have more?  Sure, I'd love to have had 
a son to carry on my name.  But I will not continue to polute the 
world's overgrown population.  Look at the population problems across 
the world.  China and India are the two most overpopulated countries in 
the world.

> And US is protected from entry pretty darn well. Its really hard to get in
> here legally :)

Good.

> I agree with you on the language if you live here please learn English.

Then I suggestion you revisit your own posting:

'Remember you ancestors where in the same boat'

I suspect that was supposed to be:

remember your ancestors were in the same boat....

> 
> I will stop responding on this subject now. There is no point in trying to
> tell you, you would have so see all this from inside for yourself.

You missed my whole point of my previous posting.  This country, at one 
time had the ability to take on immigrants with no problem.  I believe 
this country has reached saturation.  Just like any other medium, it 
will only hold so much.  Look at the burden on the health care system, 
the issues with elder care and such.  This country, and the world needs 
to understand, there is no room folks.

It has come to the point, that as others enter, others pay the price. 
This is not right, good, or healthy.

> 
> Tomas
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> Mazukna, Thomas wrote:
> 
>>then you have to sell that BMW and go work for 40k/y as H1B does or find
>>another field.
>>everybody is affected by economy downturn, and everybody have to change.
>>IT market was oversaturated by people who finish 3 month VB course and
> 
> call
> 
>>themselves software developer. I do not see any threat to people with good
>>skills and broad skill set college degree and experience.
> 
> 
> 15+ years in software development, BS in CS, and a damn good programmer. 
>   Talk to me in 6 months....
> 
> 
>>US is like a gold mine for people from less fortunate countries. This is a
>>land of opportunities, do not be afraid to take them. I would have stayed
>>back home if I had a decent life there. 
> 
> 
> I don't mind helping folks out, give them the shirt off my back, but 
> when there's no longer a shirt on your back....
> 
> 
>>What I see is that immigrants/H1bs and even illegals put in 150% effort,
>>hard work look for opportunities and succeed in creating a better life for
>>themselves. 
>>Some citizens on the other hand whine and try to blame everything on
> 
> someone
> 
>>else. Get your ass of the couch and do something. people get spoiled so
>>fast.
>>I am not judging anybody, this is just a tendency I see here.
> 
> 
> Yes, you are.  You've pretty much prejudge a large segment of the world 
> population, and I for one, don't appreciated it.
> 
> I've seen immigrants who do give the 150% you speak of.  I've seen 
> others sit back expecting the free ride.
> 
> Hell, they're about to give illegal immigrants in the state of Georgia 
> drivers license.  What's with that?  If they show up to get a drivers 
> license, they should find themselves on their way back where they came
from.
> 
> I've seen lazy us citizens as well, and I've seen people like me, who 
> put in 10+ hour days.  Yes, I've been rewarded for my efforts, only one 
> wrung above me in the technical universe.
> 
> Further, the non-english speaking folks of this country continue to put 
> a burden on the whole system.  Educational facilities don't have the 
> funds or people to deal with it.
> 
> I don't go to France, Spain or Germany and expect people to speak 
> English.  The same should go for people who come to this country, 
> particularily if they are going to stay and take away the jobs of those 
> who are already here.
> 
> 
> 
>>Tomas
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ahuitzot at mindspring.com [mailto:ahuitzot at mindspring.com]
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:12 PM
>>To: ale at ale.org
>>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
>>
>>
>>And my point is, if we keep outsourcing there will not be anyone left in
>>america that would be able to afford these "cheap" software (or what ever)
>>products, because none of us will be left employed!  Unless of course you
> 
> do
> 
>>not mind working for $7 an hr at arbys with no health insurance (or a very
>>minimum).
>>
>>In this way the "Global" economy makes no sense.  You cut out all the
>>"Expensive" workers here, and there is noone left with enough money to buy
>>your product, except maybe other companies.  Hmm. Ponder that for
> 
> awhile....
> 
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:17:57 -0500 "ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)"
>><reddyraja.annareddy at hp.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no
>>>option left except to brings H1
>>>and also outsource the work. Let us see the
>>>reasons behind the argument.
>>>Europe is already having good software
>>>engineering background. 
>>>
>>>1. Competition among companies has increased a
>>>lot. If you don't provide
>>>software for cheap, some one will provide it
>>>and take over your market. The
>>>market is now a global economy. You can no
>>>loner think locally. Suppose you
>>>produce the software locally. In order for you
>>>to compete globally, you have
>>>to have a reasonable price. Given the emrging
>>>developing nations like India,
>>>China, they can write software at a much lower
>>>cost compared to when the
>>>software is written in US. In order for US
>>>software companies to survice,
>>>the only way out is to be part of the Global
>>>economy and invest in India,
>>>otherwise they are going to loose the
>>>competition. If you see Intel, Sun,
>>>IBM, HP, Ford, GM, GE, all these companies have
>>>office in India. Thousands
>>>of sofwtware professionals are working in these
>>>companies to prodeuce
>>>cheaper software.
>>>2. If the software is cheap, the benefits you
>>>are going to get are
>>>  a.Lower insurance in most of the cases.
>>>Because if they by expensive
>>>software, they have to charge more insurance.
>>>  b. Platics and Platic goods: Cheaper to
>>>produce in China compared to any
>>>other country in the world. If this is not so,
>>>you have to buy the same
>>>pieice for $10 if made in US as compared to $1
>>>if made in China. This means
>>>the inflation will go up. The cost of living
>>>will go up. Our salary will not
>>>be sufficient to survive.
>>>  c. Even companies in India are shifting
>>>their manufacturing bases to
>>>china for cheaper platic goods. Economy is
>>>truly Global.
>>>3. Ireland a small country amounts major
>>>software exports in all over the
>>>world.
>>>4. The companies not only have to survive, they
>>>have to make profit.
>>>Othewise invertors will not invest and the
>>>stock goes down. US economy is
>>>driven by stock value as compared to a real
>>>value of the company. A company
>>>is what an anlyst see as it is. It is not the
>>>company the employess are made
>>>of etc.
>>>
>>>5. I think going forwared, the days are going
>>>to be tough. India and China
>>>also have tough tasks ahead.
>>>
>>>6. I think, US is doing what it is supposed to
>>>do(Smart). It is the mart
>>>move in the Global economy to keep inflation
>>>low and economy moving.
>>>Otherwise there will me more layoffs etc.
>>>
>>>7. Why do we buy Japanese goods specifically
>>>Cars etc. Becuase they last
>>>long. The economy is truly global.
>>>
>>>8. I think the next century belongs to those,
>>>who produce goods at a cheaper
>>>cost. Does this country ever producess like
>>>this. There is a point at which
>>>this country has to yield to other developing
>>>nations. As the econmomy
>>>becomes global, more and more developing
>>>countries will take part keeping
>>>the cost of goods down and keeping the
>>>inlfation down.
>>>
>>>9. We have to figure out new ways to survive
>>>ourselves. Other wise we are
>>>going to loose the cause.
>>>
>>>10. The reson why US is developed beacause of
>>>the intense cold war. They are
>>>forced to develop.
>>> For any nation to survive, the people should
>>>not rest. For people not to
>>>rest,there has to be issues.
>>>
>>>--cheers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Ray Knight
>>>[mailto:audilover at atlantabroadband.com]
>>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:58 PM
>>>To: ale at ale.org
>>>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, 2002-12-16 at 15:58, Mazukna, Thomas
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Geoffrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't know if they do or not.  Bottom
>>>
>>>line for me is, I see too
>>>many 
>>>
>>>
>>>>>VERY GOOD technical U.S. Citizens out of
>>>
>>>work, and therefore think
>>>that 
>>>
>>>
>>>>>H1Bs should be stopped for until this
>>>
>>>problem is resolved.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stopping H1b will not solve the problem.
>>>
>>>Period. But it is convenient
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>>blame someone else instead.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Again, if there are citizens who are
>>>
>>>capable of performing the
>>>function, 
>>>
>>>
>>>>>they should get the first shot.
>>>>
>>>>And it is in 99% of the cases. Have you
>>>
>>>looked at job offerings? 99%
>>>say "No
>>>
>>>
>>>>H1b sponsorship" on the first line. 
>>>>
>>>>If you are in good health and can not find a
>>>
>>>job in US you are doing
>>>
>>>
>>>>something wrong. Take a look around there are
>>>
>>>plenty of jobs, but it
>>>will
>>>
>>>
>>>>not be 100k+ consulting gig, but you will not
>>>
>>>starve to death. H1b on
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>other hand once lost the job, must leave the
>>>
>>>country immediately,
>>>since you
>>>
>>>
>>>>can not work for any other company.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>A risk the H1B visa holder should have been
>>>aware of before taking the
>>>job.  If you can't live by the rules of the
>>>visa don't accept it. 
>>>Besides most H1B visa holders are creating
>>>"brain drain" problems in
>>>their home country.  If they stayed home and
>>>put there knowledge to work
>>>they would not have the same standard of living
>>>they enjoy in the U.S.,
>>>but would be improving the future of their own
>>>country.
>>>
>>>Ray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 

-- 
Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net

The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
Think about it...

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