[ale] WAY OT: RE: [ale] Is there any way to stop this travesty? -- NO, of course not!

[rhiannen]

Apologies to the list, also, for not marking this OT when I responded -
my initial response had been personal and I didn't read the "To" field
before replying again.

The topic of secret ballots has been covered numerous times online,
Googling will give you overwhelming examples.  My view is that, human
nature being what it is, aside from the very real possibility of
coercion (which has tons of historical precedence), people will most
likely vote as they see the mob voting, and I do not find the idea of
mob rule particularly comforting.  (<joke> Could you imagine write-in
candidates of Brittany Spears and Michael Jackson as our most powerful
political figures? Eek!  </joke>)

The universal, and with equal suffrage, right to vote and to be elected
in periodic elections held by secret ballot is considered one of the
basic human rights by nearly every civilized nation in the world.  In
1872 England, William Gladstone and other reformers thought it important
enough to get "The Secret Ballot Act" passed precisely because of the
abuse occurring directly from having votes public.  Abuses such as
people being turned out of their homes because they voted for someone
other than their local landowner.  A favorite voting reform trick by
dictatorships around the world and throughout history has been the
holding of "elections" without a secret ballot.  Amazingly, the side
with all the guns would win the election!  

So, somehow, I don't think the secret ballot is just a tool for the US
gubment types to drain more tax money out of us or to "dumb us down".  

Instead of just continuing on with my opinions on the subject, I would
refer you, and any other interested parties, to the following scattered
ramblings from some of my bookmarks: 

"There are strong normative arguments that support the principle of
secrecy in voting. These include public expectation that secrecy should
be protected as well as wide spread concerns that certain groups within
society would be subject to overt or implicit pressure to vote according
to the wishes of a dominant family member, associate or employer.
Alongside these concerns there is also the issue of vote buying and
selling which is prevented by keeping the ballot secret."  
http://www.local-regions.odpm.gov.uk/egov/e-voting/07.htm 

"The goal of any voting system is to establish the intent of the voter,
and transfer that intent to the vote counter. Amongst a circle of
friends, a show of hands can easily decide which movie to attend. The
vote is open and everyone can monitor it. But what if Alice wants
_Charlie's Angels_ and Bob wants _102 Dalmatians_? Will Alice vote in
front of his friends? Will Bob? What if the circle of friends is two
hundred; how long will it take to count the votes? Will the theater
still be showing the movie? Because the scale changes, our voting
methods have to change.  -  Anonymity requires a secret ballot."  
http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0012.html

"GESO claims that its proposal is the most democratic possible, yet
continues to insist on "card counting" as the method for determining
whether there is graduate student support for GESO over the use of a
secret ballot. Card counting consists of personally collecting
signatures on cards for or against unionization and then delivering the
ballots to an impartial election observer to count. This invites rampant
fraud and intimidation, since GESO members  have access to the actual
ballot cards before they are seen by anyone else. Numerous allegations
of intimidation of graduate students who disagree with unionization
plans have appeared in print in years past.  In 1995, many GESO members
physically threatened and assaulted graduate students who refused to
comply with the so-called "grade strike," during which TAs ceased to
grade papers and refused to return exams to professors."  
http://www.yale.edu/yfp/archives/02_01_feature.html

"One of the key parts of that promise was a government commitment that
workers would be allowed to vote by secret ballot in union elections.
Traditionally, because voting has been public, the old official unions
favored by maquiladora owners have benn able to identify supporters of
the new independent ones. Following a string of incidents in which
independent union supporters in Tijuana and Mexico City were threatened,
fired and even beaten for their choices, Mexico promised to allow voting
by secret ballot instead."
http://www.zmag.org/baconlaborwar.htm

Google can provide you with thousands of more examples; I'm done. 

---- 
rhia
knowledge is power - arm yourself



Charles Marcus wrote:
> 
> I added the OT prefix - should have done so three posts back, sorry...
> 
> > From: rhiannen <rhia at atlantacon.org>
> > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:21 PM
> >
> >> huh?  Exactly how is open ballot voting (everyone being
> >> able to see who voted for whom, and when) *worse* than
> >> secret ballot voting in this respect??
> 
> > Easy.  If you've been told that "Very Dire Things" may
> > "accidently" happen to you or your loved ones if your
> > vote a certain way, are you going to want to have your
> > vote registered publically for everyone to see if you
> > decided to vote differently? Don't think that could ever
> > happen?
> 
> I think it is highly unlikely, and just FUD spread by the people who have
> been working so hard toward organized votescamming.  Besides:
> 
> a) There is plenty of vote fraud going on now with the secret ballot crap,
> and
> 
> b) there is always an alternate solution to problems like this...
> 
> How about, when you vote, if you were threatened in such a manner, you
> record the threat, *and who made it, and all the relevant circumstances*, at
> the same time.
> 
> Then, if the threat is made good on, the cops know just where to start
> looking.
> 
> We have got to get over this ridiculous fear of what 'might' happen.  What
> happened to the good old pioneering spirit?
> 
> > Why are there so many international oversight
> > committees watching elections around the world?
> > One of the most abusive uses of corrupt power is
> > to threaten by any means necessary to hold and
> > maintain that power.
> 
> Yes, and all of this is happening in countries that are using secret
> ballots.
> 
> > So America hasn't gotten that bad - YET.  Take
> > away the right to cast a ballot in secret & the
> > door is wide open for precisely that abuse.
> 
> I not only disagree, I submit to you that the opposite is true.  Is it
> possible there might be some scummy little petty tyrants that try to do
> this?  Yes.  But I guarantee, *especially* in this day and age, that all it
> would take is a few web sites that posted this kind of information for all
> to see (who is threatening who and where), and these grubby little parasites
> will crawl back under the rocks they crawled out from.
> 
> Of course, *no* solution will every be perfect.  I just prefer being open
> and above-board, than hiding in the dark, but thats just me.  :)
> 
> Charles
> 
> ---
> This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be
> sent to listmaster at ale dot org.

---
This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be 
sent to listmaster at ale dot org.