<html><body><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div><br></div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"ALE" <ale@ale.org><br><b>To: </b>"Sergio Chaves" <sergio.chaves@gmail.com>, "ALE" <ale@ale.org>, devnull@iamdevnull.info<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, December 13, 2019 12:45:32 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ale] HDD Locked Up - Wife business pics in it!<br></blockquote></div><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>Have at least as much storage available as the dead drive and run photorec NOW. It will try and try and try to pull what it can off the drive. You don't need to care about what failed, only how fast can you pull off the pictures :-)</div><br><div>(This is the perfect situation to have had a mirror drive with 2 different makes/models of drives)</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I use rsync over SSH to simulate a "tape rotation system".<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"ALE" <ale@ale.org><br><b>To: </b>"Sergio Chaves" <sergio.chaves@gmail.com>, "ALE" <ale@ale.org>, devnull@iamdevnull.info<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, December 13, 2019 12:45:32 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ale] HDD Locked Up - Wife business pics in it!<br></blockquote></div><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>Have at least as much storage available as the dead drive and run photorec NOW. It will try and try and try to pull what it can off the drive. You don't need to care about what failed, only how fast can you pull off the pictures :-)</div><br><div>(This is the perfect situation to have had a mirror drive with 2 different makes/models of drives)</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I use rsync over SSH to simulate a "tape rotation system". The script generates outputs the commands for verification and you can run those. It uses hard links to conserve disk space.<br></div><div><br></div><div>To run the script for real: ./bu.sh | /bin/bash -ex<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><pre><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">TARGET="backup"<br># This will be overwritten do it needs to<br># be deleted<br>printf '%s\n' "rm -rf ${TARGET}.50"<br>for ii in $(seq 49 -1 1); do</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"> if [[ -e "${TARGET}.${ii}" ]]; then</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"> printf '%s\n' "mv -v ${TARGET}.${ii} ${TARGET}.$(expr ${ii} + 1)"</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"> fi</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">done</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">printf '%s\n' "cp -al ${TARGET}.0 ${TARGET}.1";</span><br><span style="font-family: "courier new", courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;" data-mce-style="font-family: 'courier new', courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">printf '%s\n' 'rsync --delete -avz -e "ssh -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null" --progress <a href="mailto:user@ip:dir/">user@ip:dir/</a> ./${TARGET}.0/'</span><br></pre><div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"ALE" <ale@ale.org><br><b>To: </b>"Sergio Chaves" <sergio.chaves@gmail.com>, "ALE" <ale@ale.org>, devnull@iamdevnull.info<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, December 13, 2019 12:45:32 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ale] HDD Locked Up - Wife business pics in it!<br></blockquote></div><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>Have at least as much storage available as the dead drive and run photorec NOW. It will try and try and try to pull what it can off the drive. You don't need to care about what failed, only how fast can you pull off the pictures :-)</div><br><div>(This is the perfect situation to have had a mirror drive with 2 different makes/models of drives)</div><br><div>On Fri, 2019-12-13 at 12:30 -0500, Sergio Chaves via Ale wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div>So, here is where I am now...</div><div dir="auto">After trying several things, I ended up using a USB docking station ( bios in two PCs gave me errors and failed to boot as SATA). I then loaded an older version of lubuntu (CentOS 7 and both Ubuntu 18.4 and Mint "Tina" failed to mount it regardless of what I tried) and created a file "ignore_uas.conf" in the modprobe.d following the directions here: <a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394">https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394</a> </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was then able to see the drive.</div><div dir="auto">The dd command says "error reading /dev/sdb : Input/Output error"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">SMARTCTL says:</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-32</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-48</div><div dir="auto">Pre-Fail (but OK status) attribute-51</div><div dir="auto">Attributes 105, 120, 127, and 254 = Old-Age but with an OK status.</div><div dir="auto">Attribute 255 = Pre-Fail and with a "Failed in the Past" status</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Help?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 8:56 AM Sam Rakowski <<a href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info">devnull@iamdevnull.info</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;">When you boot to a recovery cd:<br> <br> * Can you dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null and transfer any data at all?<br> * What does 'smartctl -a /dev/sdX' tell you, if anything?<br> * What's in the syslog when you try either?<br> <br> Also, recovery-wise, around how much data are you looking to (hopefully) recover?<br> Sent via BlackBerry<br></blockquote></div></div></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Ale mailing list</pre><pre>Ale@ale.org</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at</pre><pre>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote><div><pre>-- <br></pre><pre>James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</pre></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ale mailing list<br>Ale@ale.org<br>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale<br>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo<br></blockquote></div></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div>On Fri, 2019-12-13 at 12:30 -0500, Sergio Chaves via Ale wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div>So, here is where I am now...</div><div dir="auto">After trying several things, I ended up using a USB docking station ( bios in two PCs gave me errors and failed to boot as SATA). I then loaded an older version of lubuntu (CentOS 7 and both Ubuntu 18.4 and Mint "Tina" failed to mount it regardless of what I tried) and created a file "ignore_uas.conf" in the modprobe.d following the directions here: <a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394">https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394</a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was then able to see the drive.</div><div dir="auto">The dd command says "error reading /dev/sdb : Input/Output error"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">SMARTCTL says:</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-32</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-48</div><div dir="auto">Pre-Fail (but OK status) attribute-51</div><div dir="auto">Attributes 105, 120, 127, and 254 = Old-Age but with an OK status.</div><div dir="auto">Attribute 255 = Pre-Fail and with a "Failed in the Past" status</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Help?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 8:56 AM Sam Rakowski <<a href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info">devnull@iamdevnull.info</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;">When you boot to a recovery cd:<br><br> * Can you dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null and transfer any data at all?<br> * What does 'smartctl -a /dev/sdX' tell you, if anything?<br> * What's in the syslog when you try either?<br><br> Also, recovery-wise, around how much data are you looking to (hopefully) recover?<br> Sent via BlackBerry<br></blockquote></div></div></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Ale mailing list</pre><pre>Ale@ale.org</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at</pre><pre>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote><div><pre>-- <br></pre><pre>James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</pre></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ale mailing list<br>Ale@ale.org<br>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale<br>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo<br></blockquote></div></div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"ALE" <ale@ale.org><br><b>To: </b>"Sergio Chaves" <sergio.chaves@gmail.com>, "ALE" <ale@ale.org>, devnull@iamdevnull.info<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, December 13, 2019 12:45:32 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ale] HDD Locked Up - Wife business pics in it!<br></blockquote></div><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>Have at least as much storage available as the dead drive and run photorec NOW. It will try and try and try to pull what it can off the drive. You don't need to care about what failed, only how fast can you pull off the pictures :-)</div><br><div>(This is the perfect situation to have had a mirror drive with 2 different makes/models of drives)</div><br><div>On Fri, 2019-12-13 at 12:30 -0500, Sergio Chaves via Ale wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div>So, here is where I am now...</div><div dir="auto">After trying several things, I ended up using a USB docking station ( bios in two PCs gave me errors and failed to boot as SATA). I then loaded an older version of lubuntu (CentOS 7 and both Ubuntu 18.4 and Mint "Tina" failed to mount it regardless of what I tried) and created a file "ignore_uas.conf" in the modprobe.d following the directions here: <a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394">https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394</a> </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was then able to see the drive.</div><div dir="auto">The dd command says "error reading /dev/sdb : Input/Output error"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">SMARTCTL says:</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-32</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-48</div><div dir="auto">Pre-Fail (but OK status) attribute-51</div><div dir="auto">Attributes 105, 120, 127, and 254 = Old-Age but with an OK status.</div><div dir="auto">Attribute 255 = Pre-Fail and with a "Failed in the Past" status</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Help?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 8:56 AM Sam Rakowski <<a href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info">devnull@iamdevnull.info</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;">When you boot to a recovery cd:<br> <br> * Can you dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null and transfer any data at all?<br> * What does 'smartctl -a /dev/sdX' tell you, if anything?<br> * What's in the syslog when you try either?<br> <br> Also, recovery-wise, around how much data are you looking to (hopefully) recover?<br> Sent via BlackBerry<br></blockquote></div></div></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Ale mailing list</pre><pre>Ale@ale.org</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at</pre><pre>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote><div><pre>-- <br></pre><pre>James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</pre></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ale mailing list<br>Ale@ale.org<br>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale<br>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo<br></blockquote></div></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="border-left: 2px solid #1010FF; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div>On Fri, 2019-12-13 at 12:30 -0500, Sergio Chaves via Ale wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto"><div>So, here is where I am now...</div><div dir="auto">After trying several things, I ended up using a USB docking station ( bios in two PCs gave me errors and failed to boot as SATA). I then loaded an older version of lubuntu (CentOS 7 and both Ubuntu 18.4 and Mint "Tina" failed to mount it regardless of what I tried) and created a file "ignore_uas.conf" in the modprobe.d following the directions here: <a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394" target="_blank" data-mce-href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394">https://askubuntu.com/questions/1029544/seagate-2t-external-hard-drive-can-not-be-mounted-detected-by-lsusb-but-not-by/1184394#1184394</a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was then able to see the drive.</div><div dir="auto">The dd command says "error reading /dev/sdb : Input/Output error"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">SMARTCTL says:</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-32</div><div dir="auto">Failing attribute-48</div><div dir="auto">Pre-Fail (but OK status) attribute-51</div><div dir="auto">Attributes 105, 120, 127, and 254 = Old-Age but with an OK status.</div><div dir="auto">Attribute 255 = Pre-Fail and with a "Failed in the Past" status</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Help?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 12, 2019, 8:56 AM Sam Rakowski <<a href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info" target="_blank" data-mce-href="mailto:devnull@iamdevnull.info">devnull@iamdevnull.info</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 2px #729fcf solid; padding-left: 1ex;">When you boot to a recovery cd:<br><br> * Can you dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null and transfer any data at all?<br> * What does 'smartctl -a /dev/sdX' tell you, if anything?<br> * What's in the syslog when you try either?<br><br> Also, recovery-wise, around how much data are you looking to (hopefully) recover?<br> Sent via BlackBerry<br></blockquote></div></div></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Ale mailing list</pre><pre>Ale@ale.org</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</pre><pre><br></pre><pre>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at</pre><pre>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote><div><pre>-- <br></pre><pre>James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</pre></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ale mailing list<br>Ale@ale.org<br>https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale<br>See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo<br></blockquote></div></div></body></html>