[ale] Outdoor Wifi - Water - The missing Detail?

[neal at mnopltd.com]

Keeping the balls in the air...

https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/1226/ is a tech support page 
which looks like exactly what we are trying to do. Except they have cows 
involved.  Although we do have a petting zoo.

The CPE510 is about $50 from a variety of places, including Amazon Free 
Shipping & Returns.

There is references in their forums to using EAP225-Outdoor as the 
access point at the farm end.  These appear to be $79 on Amazon with 
Free Returns.

I have emailed them about range.  Their reply indicated 15km in "ideal 
conditions".   We likely have at least one tree, and the top of the 
tent, and maybe a bouncy house.   So, I've asked for some clarification, 
without mentioning the 500 ft threshold.   IF we mount these high up on 
the building, and up on a pole at the end of the field, it seems like 
the most results for the least drama, and we don't worry about lightning 
strike on outside CAT6, nor the cost of fiber.

regards,

Neal


On 2021-06-28 12:22, Alex Carver via Ale wrote:
> Yes, water attenuates RF signals.  But that's why you mount the
> directional AP's ABOVE the people.  You shouldn't be aiming THROUGH the
> people at all.  Aside from it not working properly, directional access
> points have more power and you end up needing to do an RF exposure
> survey.  Put it on a pole and you're fine.
> 
> 
> On 2021-06-28 10:17, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
>> It takes me a while sometimes.   So, looking for "wifi loss through
>> trees", once finds comments which suggest that while wood might not
>> reduce Wifi, WATER does, and trees and leaves contain water.
>> 
>> Well, people contain even more water.
>> 
>> So, it's looking to me like a single directional access point at the
>> back of the building is doomed.   It might look like it works, it 
>> might
>> even test pretty good.  Empty.
>> 
>> BUT, put a 60x130 tent in the back field, fill it with 800-1000 
>> people,
>> put the beer and food lines at the back side, (because grills, beer
>> trailer, warmers, ice-trailer, etc are all on the back side, and put
>> volunteers running tablets at table-top level, then each tablet is
>> trying to get Wifi THROUGH about 40 people.  Who are well-beered.   
>> Just
>> not going to work.
>> 
>> Looks like we should indeed run a pair of somethings to get across the
>> parking lot, then Cat6 to the rear tree line, and then an access point
>> high up, so that food/beer staff have nothing between them and the
>> access point.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2021-06-28 11:08, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
>>> Thanks.  Please, keep the ideas coming.   There were comments about
>>> power - nope, no conduit, Scout building and rear tent power all come
>>> from separate lines back to the transformers on the pole.
>>> 
>>> What I'm getting from the Ubiquiti forum is that UAP-AC-LR-US 
>>> 802.11ac
>>> Long Range Access Point will likely peter out at 300 ft.
>>> 
>>> Note that the satellite view is stale - the two trees right at the
>>> back of the church building are gone - they were sending roots 
>>> towards
>>> the foundation. So, it's a clear shot up to the trees beyond the
>>> driveway.  Unclear to me how much a couple of trees at that distance
>>> can block WiFi.
>>> 
>>> Responses do suggest that we may have TWO distinct groups to cover or
>>> not: Vendors in the parking lot, and our beer/food vendors at the 
>>> back
>>> of the tent.   The parking lot may have to get tossed over the side 
>>> as
>>> 2nd priority.   Frankly, I think most of the vendors do other
>>> festivals, and have worked out how to do their credit cards on their
>>> phones; they would just rather not spend their data.  I think cell
>>> coverage in the parking lot is adequate.
>>> 
>>> So, if I understand your approach, it involves two NanoStations?  Or
>>> two NanoStations to get from building to back field, and an access
>>> point on the field NanoStation to provide the Wifi to the tablets?
>>> 
>>> regards,
>>> 
>>> Neal
>>> 
>>> On 2021-06-28 10:40, Alex Carver via Ale wrote:
>>>> Just to add fun to the festivities I have a couple of these 
>>>> NanoStations
>>>> that work very well as PTP bridges:
>>>> 
>>>> https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-and-ltu/products/nanostation-loco5ac
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The radiation pattern is more directional than the UFO-style AP's 
>>>> like
>>>> the UAP AC so it tends to work better for that purpose.  They're 
>>>> also
>>>> able to work in a multi-drop configuration so you can have multiple
>>>> endpoints instead of cable.  When they're in PTP mode they're not
>>>> directly accessible with normal WiFi products, the protocol is 
>>>> different
>>>> so it's harder to have someone "tap" into your connection from a
>>>> sidelobe.
>>>> 
>>>> They're also inexpensive at $50 each and rated for outdoor use.
>>>> 
>>>> These should work at the range you're wanting but you can always go 
>>>> up a
>>>> bit and get something like this if range really is an issue:
>>>> 
>>>> https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-and-ltu/products/litebeam-5ac-long-range
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Built-in dish makes a tighter beam and a lot of range (like several
>>>> miles in unobstructed LOS).
>>>> 
>>>> Many options in Ubiquiti's airMAX and airFiber device groups.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2021-06-26 09:12, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
>>>>> Thanks to all that replied.   My goal was to figure out the 
>>>>> options,
>>>>> and
>>>>> focus some other people's attention in a productive direction.   I 
>>>>> do
>>>>> NOT want to be the expert on this, as on the day, I'm busy doing 
>>>>> sound
>>>>> or playing music on stage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I will quickly summarize the high points I've passed on.  Not to
>>>>> preclude further comments from the ALE group, which I value.   But 
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> gonna let this simmer and see if some other folks pick up the ball.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> WHAT IS THE ENVIRONMENT? You can look at Google Maps for 1826 
>>>>> Killian
>>>>> Hill road, Lilburn
>>>>> From back window to the far tree line at back of field: 450ft (137
>>>>> meters)
>>>>> From back window to the scout building: 170ft (52 meters)
>>>>> From scout building to back of field: 304ft (92meters)
>>>>> A straight line of Cat6e wire from back door, across the driveway 
>>>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>> choir room side, to the trees, then along the side of the property,
>>>>> back
>>>>> to the cross near the fire-pit: 500 ft ( 152 meters)
>>>>> 
>>>>> So from Back wall of building to where the Beer is sold is 480ft.
>>>>> 
>>>>> OPTIONS:
>>>>> A) Run a 500 foot Cat6e cable from the switch in the sanctuary, out 
>>>>> the
>>>>> choir room fire escape, out the Choir fire escape door, across the
>>>>> driveway in a 1/2” PVC pipe,  with pieces of 2x4 slant cut on 
>>>>> either
>>>>> side to make a ramp to drive over, along the tree line, to the 
>>>>> cross
>>>>> near the fire pit, and place an access point there.  We would 
>>>>> already
>>>>> have power there for audio speaker.
>>>>> 
>>>>> B) Implement a Mesh network, using existing Virtual Studio 
>>>>> Raspberry PI
>>>>> processors, from the back window, to the scout building, to a unit 
>>>>> at
>>>>> the tent.   While possible, this leaves one more essential 
>>>>> component of
>>>>> Oktoberfest that Only Neal Understands.
>>>>> 
>>>>> C) Place a purpose built long range Access point outside, perhaps 
>>>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>> classroom fire-escape wall, where it will be in the shade of the
>>>>> steps. 
>>>>>   This could be a permanent installation.   Some of these can be
>>>>> powered
>>>>> by the CAT6 cable connection.  (POE)   Neal is not an expert.  I am
>>>>> reading that some units claim coverage of up to 600 ft.  This would
>>>>> include coverage of the rear parking lot.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Possible products: This is by no means exhaustive; consider
>>>>> https://www.mbreviews.com/best-outdoor-wifi-range-extender/ for 
>>>>> more
>>>>> details/ideas.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A) Ubiquiti Networks UAP-AC-LR-US 802.11ac Long Range Access Point 
>>>>> $109
>>>>> https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1189144-REG/ubiquiti_networks_uap_ac_lr_us_802_11ac_long_range.html
>>>>> 
>>>>>   There are indoor, and indoor/outdoor flavors of these.  Some 
>>>>> powered
>>>>> by POE.
>>>>> 
>>>>> B) TP-LINK CPE210 N300 Outdoor Access Point $39
>>>>> https://www.microcenter.com/product/482831/tp-link-cpe210-n300-outdoor-access-point
>>>>> 
>>>>> This unit appears to be designed to mount on an outside wall, and 
>>>>> has
>>>>> directional antenna which focus the signal in one direction only.
>>>>> 
>>>>> C) CPE510 5GHz 300Mbps 13dBi Outdoor $49
>>>>> CPEhttps://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/outdoor-radio/cpe510/ 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unclear what you get for the additional $10.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now that I'm writing this, I'm wondering if the TP-Link units 
>>>>> really
>>>>> only work talking to each other, and not to a tablet out in the 
>>>>> grass.
>>>>> 
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Neal