[ale] Chinese government recommendation - Linux

Thu May 22 00:36:27 EDT 2014

Or the IT grad students on the list... Or Anthro or Education researchers.
People are strange about the level of interest they have just learning
anything. My students also were differentiated more by attitude than
aptitude. My pet theory is that a person who knows how to actively
integrate the new info with their current store is going to have an easier
time learning anything.
On May 19, 2014 3:48 PM, "Tom Freeman" <tfreeman at intel.digichem.net> wrote:

>
> From conversations with students - the fact that a phone doesn't have the
> same UI as a computer doesn't matter. Apparently (assuming I'm not making a
> bigger idiot of myself than usual), a large percentage of the population
> sees "phone" as a completely different beast than "computer" even if the
> "phone" in question is working in the same fashion as their "computer". As
> such, apparently "easy" and "hard" don't mean a whole lot.
>
> Wonder if one of the academic admins on this list could convince a
> psychology researcher that there is a deep, probably long lasting, research
> project here??
>
> On Mon, 19 May 2014, Jay Lozier wrote:
>
>  I partially agree, some users will not switch from their comfort zone at
>> all. It does not matter if there is an excellent reason such as the OS is
>> no
>> longer supported. Others will switch easily.
>>
>> Also, if the UI is a problem, many users would have never used a
>> smartphone
>> or tablet with their very different UIs.
>>
>> The sysadmins could be a bigger problem if they refuse to update their
>> skills. But there is a very serious stick available to bring them in-line:
>> dismissal.
>>
>> About differences between CLI commands, I find the more I work with
>> different OSes, distros, programming languages, etc. there is a lot of
>> transferable knowledge. Yes there are differences that need to learned in
>> syntax and terminology (Ruby hash vs Python dictionary) but the concepts
>> are
>> the same. As I use Linux more, the more comfortable I am with the CLI and
>> sometime find it more convenient to use than a GUI.
>>
>> On 19/05/14 10:57, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
>>
>>       Uh no.
>>
>>
>>
>>       My point was that it is the end users that are the problem.
>>       Saying “a desktop is a desktop” is all well and good but the
>>       reason most organizations delayed upgrading from XP to Windows 7
>>       was because even changes in Windows desktops are painful to roll
>>       out to end users.  Telling them they have to go from Windows to
>>       Linux (and change many of the underlying tools such as the
>>       office suite) would be even more painful.  Not because it is
>>       technically difficult but because people are resistant to change
>>       AND because many people don’t really “understand” what is
>>       happening when they do something.
>>
>>
>>
>>       My discussion of Admins was because we (UNIX/Linux admins at
>>       least) are more likely to embrace change if for no other reason
>>       than it is “cool” to learn new things.   Having said that
>>       however, I have met a fair number of admins that didn’t want to
>>       be bothered with learning the Solaris or HP-UX way if they
>>       started on AIX or vice-versa.   In Windows admin land MS has
>>       been weaning them off of GUIs for a while now and I’ve talked to
>>       both the kind of MS Admin that rails against this and the type
>>       that realizes how much more power they have with command line
>>       tools.    In some shops the MS Admins are the ones who end up
>>       working on the first Linux systems.
>>
>>
>>
>>       That doesn’t mean you can’t have your preferences (I loved
>>       HP-UX) but you do need to learn the differences.   For me it has
>>       all been fairly easy because I started on DOS went to Novell
>>       then to UNIX and Xenix and finally Linux so I’ve seen the
>>       progression.    The key is getting the basic tools/concepts and
>>       transferring your knowledge to the new platform then building on
>>       that with the esoteric behaviors unique to each.   I was first
>>       introduced to command line in DOS and to “users” and “groups” in
>>       Novell.  Both of those experiences lent themselves very well to
>>       learning UNIX where essentially I just had to make myself a
>>       cheat sheet of the different command names for the same
>>       functions.  (type = cat, dir = ls, copy = cp, rename = mv etc…).
>>
>>
>>
>>       From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf
>>       Of Jim Kinney
>>       Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 10:30 AM
>>       To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
>>       Subject: Re: [ale] Chinese government recommendation - Linux
>>
>>
>>
>>       Hmm. Interesting point. Admins.
>>
>> From a user perspective, a desktop is a desktop is a desktop. Plenty
>> of Windows people have switch to Mac and been productive is a short
>> learning cycle. That suggests a new desktop _can_ be learned.
>>
>> But admins are another group altogether.
>>
>> How things are done behind the scenes is really, REALLY different
>> between windows, Linux and Mac (and Solaris/Oracle, and between Linux
>> variants, etc). The tools that exist to support admins for large scale
>> deployments are radically different between the systems as the
>> philosophy is extremely radically different between the systems.
>>
>> So I would put forward that the wholesale adoption of Linux will
>> depend on the retraining of the existing admins so they are willing to
>> tell upstream "sure, Linux will be useful here".
>>
>> Ha! Then maybe the Mac admins can work somewhere other than retail!
>> 8D
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Lightner, Jeff
>> <JLightner at dsservices.com> wrote:
>>
>> While I’d like to think Windows is on the way out I will say that this
>> isn’t the first time its demise has been predicted.   Unfortunately
>> there are way too many people (organizations especially) that are not
>> willing to pull the plug because of the learning curve.   I know
>> you’ll all say that Linux is easier etc… but the fact is MOST users
>> don’t really understand computers and making them learn ANYTHING new
>> is quite difficult.   (If you don’t believe that find out how long it
>> took most organizations to get their executives off a blackberry
>> products – if they have.)
>>
>>
>>
>> I recall just a few years back where China and other governments were
>> planning on making their own Linux distros but never saw much traction
>> on that.
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s funny how things go.  M$’ stated reasoning for creating NT was to
>> take over the UNIX market.  Instead they killed off Novell.   Linux on
>> the other hand has made deep inroads into the former UNIX markets
>> mainly because the admins that do one can do the other.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of
>> Jim Kinney
>> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:11 AM
>> To: Atlanta User Group (E-mail)
>> Subject: Re: [ale] Chinese government recommendation - Linux
>>
>>
>>
>> Doc format is often required when there will be editing done. Often
>> recruiters will strip contact data or even change layout. Internally,
>> some places will add notes to résumés.
>>
>> On May 17, 2014 11:06 PM, "Boris Borisov" <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I cannot count how many times is been required to send resume in .DOC
>> format when I'm applying for IT positions. And this are people from
>> IT. For government folk will take a lot more.
>>
>> On 5/18/14, Jay Lozier <jslozier at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Requiring open formats is actually OS agnostic but any movement in
>> that
>> > direction makes FOSS applications competitive. There was a UK
>> proposal to
>> > require ODF formats for all government documents a few months ago.
>> There was
>> > some discussion about this on the LO user list and the consensus was
>> it
>> > would hurt MS as it evens the playing field for all office suites
>> Many
>> > assumed if adopted that other vendors would be able to add ODF
>> support
>> > rather easily and FOSS alternatives (LO, AOO, and Calligra) would be
>> > competing on merits. It would help Linux because the FOSS office
>> suites on
>> > Linux all use ODF as their native format However, on the LO user
>> list, I
>> > think the consensus was users would be more likely to switch suites
>> rather
>> > than OSes if the proposal was adopted.
>> >
>> > On 05/17/2014 07:22 PM, Wolf Halton wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If several governments start requiring open formats, that will help
>> too.
>> >> Windows is on a downward trajectory.  They cannot decide if they
>> want to
>> >> stay on the desktop/laptop horse or fully commit to the
>> phone/tablet
>> >> horse, so they are about to find themselves on their collective
>> butts
>> >> between the ruts of the trails of those 2 horses, running away.
>> >>
>> >> Wolf Halton
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
>> >> Security in the Cloud - http://AtlantaCloudTech.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Jay Lozier <jslozier at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I saw a link to this article on Softpedia (from Ostatic):
>> >>>
>> >>>http://news.softpedia.com/news/Chinese-Government-Says-
>> on-TV-that-Windows-X
>> P-Users-Must-Choose-Linux-441889.shtml
>> >>>
>> >>> The article noted the Chinese government is beginning to push
>> Chinese XP
>> >>> users to consider adopting Linux. It did note that many user
>> preferred
>> >>> applications do not have a Linux version currently available. But
>> often
>> >>> there are FOSS equivalents available that are suitable for many
>> users. It
>> >>> also noted that Russia and Germany are actively pursuing Linux.
>> >>>
>> >>> My take is this is probably what Linux needs to get market
>> traction; a
>> >>> very large market to switch to Linux. If the Chinese convert to
>> mostly
>> >>> Linux hardware vendors and commercial software vendors will need
>> to
>> >>> support Linux or abandon the Chinese market. Other than the
>> unmentionable
>> >>> I believe most vendors will follow market trends. If the trends is
>> >>> towards Linux, they will follow.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Jay Lozier
>> >>> jslozier at gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Jay Lozier
>> > jslozier at gmail.com
>>
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>> --
>>
>> --
>> James P. Kinney III
>>
>> Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
>> gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
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>> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
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