[ale] [OT] First Programming Language for Adult??

Fri Jun 6 23:18:02 EDT 2014

If she wants to become a good programmer, then she needs to learn REAL
programming languages. Fortran and Assembly are the only ways to go! Do not
settle for anything less!

=)

But really, Python is a great first language.

Java and C# are marketable, though both languages have their critics. These
would make good second languages.

C should be learned eventually, but down the road. The general concept of
how assembly works is also nice to understand,  but proficiency in assembly
is becoming a niche thing.

Functional programming is starting to get a buzz in some circles, so
Haskell would be another good language down the road.

C++ is going through many exciting new changes, but it's a complicated
language. I've never used D, but it's being worked on by a well respected
C++ authority.
On May 31, 2014 9:41 PM, "Tom Freeman" <tfreeman at intel.digichem.net> wrote:

>
> Jeff
>
> I think you make some seriously valid points - although this child is "I
> don't know what I need - so I'll learn something new just in case it
> becomes useful."
>
> In any event - I've passed the information along
>
> On Sat, 31 May 2014, Byron Jeff wrote:
>
>  Tom,
>>
>> I'm sorry I'm late to the party. I wanted to throw in my two cents since
>> this area is part of my job description.
>>
>> Before she dives in, I would strongly suggest that she step back and take
>> a
>> 30000 ft view of the issue. Specifically:
>>
>> Programming isn't about languages. Programming is about solving problems.
>>
>> Programming languages are a black hole that frankly sucks all the oxygen
>> out of the room of the programming process. If you start the programming
>> process by learning a language, you often miss the point.
>>
>> The first of the most important ideas to get her understand is that it's
>> impossible to program anything if you cannot solve the problem yourself,
>> by
>> hand. The second is that a programming language is simply an expression of
>> how to explain to an automatic system how to execute the solution to the
>> program that she (as the programmer) has already solved. Their utility is
>> in how they can help you express solutions. Be mindful they are not the
>> solution. Pretty much anything that needs to be programmed can be done in
>> any programming language.
>>
>> Programming language books an tutorials spend all their time explaining
>> HOW
>> to do something in a programming language. Unfortunately, they spend very
>> little time on WHY the process needs to be done (to solve problems) and
>> WHAT process needs to be done (algorithmic development).
>>
>> Programming in general is like the process of writing a recipe for baking
>> a
>> cake. You cannot explain to someone else how to bake a cake without first
>> knowing how to do it yourself. Then the process of explaining how to bake
>> a
>> cake is different than the actual process of baking the cake. How many
>> times have you gotten frustrated trying to give directions to someone to a
>> place that you know how to get to? Knowing how to get there and explaining
>> how to get there are different activities. Now add on top of that idea
>> that
>> you do not know how to get to the destination but you still need to
>> explain
>> to someone else how to get there. Finally the person that you are giving
>> directions to only speaks Mandarin. Hopefully you can see the real
>> problems.
>>
>> Welcome to the wonderful world of programming.
>>
>> Programming language books teach Mandarin. They don't teach how to write
>> recipes. They don't teach how to bake. They presume that the student
>> already knows how to do the first two. It's often a flawed assumption.
>>
>> I currently have on my whiteboard a list of steps for the Problem Solving
>> and Programming process. They are adapted from concepts from George
>> Polya's
>> book: How to Solve It. There's a Wikipedia entry that outlines the
>> process.
>> They book isn't perfect because Polya was a mathematician. But it's
>> actually helpful that it was written in 1945 (and updated of course over
>> the years) because it doesn't focus on computer languages. The steps:
>>
>> 1. Read, Understand, and Explain the problem.
>>
>> To reiterate, you cannot solve a problem that you do not understand
>> yourself.
>>
>> 2. Design potential solutions for the problem, then test to see if those
>> solutions actually solve the problem. This should be done in an adhoc non
>> programmatic environment (such as paper).
>>
>> This is the algorithic design step. Shackleford's book is good for this
>> because he deliberately abstracts out the programming language.
>>
>> 3. Map the solution elements from step #2 onto the programmatic elements
>> available in the programming language of your choice.
>>
>> After problem solving the next programming step is translation into
>> whatever limited programming language is going to be used for the task.
>> This is where knowing the actual language is useful. Also this is a place
>> where design patterns are helpful because they are prepared mappings of
>> common solutions onto programmic language elements.
>>
>> 4. Write/Debug the program using the mappings from step #3.
>>
>> Caution your student not to start here. The tendency is to want to
>> generate
>> the artifact. But clearly it cannot be done without a plan.
>>
>> 5. Test, Test, and Test the final artifact.
>>
>> There has to be empiracal evidence of correct operation. Just because a
>> program is written doesn't mean that it is correct.
>>
>> Expert programmers tend to internalize the first 3 steps. Some muttering
>> along with some hastily jotted notes is typically enough to get them
>> through steps 1-3 for most small to medium sized projects. However,
>> novices
>> are not practiced enough or exposed enough to that process to simply
>> presume that they know how to do it.
>>
>> The early process is complicated by the fact that the tools that many of
>> us
>> learned for doing algorithm development (flowcharts, etc.) have fallen by
>> the wayside as design tools. I've been searching for the appropriate tools
>> for novice programmers. Nothing is a perfect fit:
>>
>> - Nassi-Shneiderman Charts seem to be a useful alternative to traditional
>>  flowcharts. However, like flowcharts they are strictly procedurally
>>  based.
>>
>> - UML at some level is appropriate for object oriented design. The
>>  challenge here is trying to avoid "Love what you learn first." syndrome
>>  because procedural and object oriented are two completely different
>>  design processes complicated by the fact that object oriented programming
>>  is a superset of proceduraal programming so that you really cannot do
>>  OO programming without understanding procedural concepts first. Check
>>  out: http://www.agiledata.org/essays/objectOrientation101.html for
>>  an introductory discussion. Also I would suggest the book "The Object
>>  Oriented Though Process" by Matt Weisfeld for a good discussion on
>>  the design process as opposed to the language focus.
>>
>> Anyway I hope some of this motivates the process.
>>
>> BAJ
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 08:10:35AM -0400, Tom Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> To chip, Ed, leam, Jay, JD, and Stephen in particular - thank you
>>> very much. I will be passing full text on for her consideration.
>>>
>>> In summary, Python & Java (in that order) are considered solid first
>>> languages. Go is of significant interest. Language direction after
>>> that is pretty much go where life leads, although MS Access does get
>>> a down check in comments.
>>>
>>> I haven't dug properly into the links suggested, but the digging at
>>> this point says they are solid - as expected from this group.
>>>
>>> Thank you to one and all for the use of your bandwidth
>>>
>>> On Thu, 29 May 2014, Tom Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> My apologies for using up people's bandwidth for something not
>>>> really linux, but this list is the best resource I know of for
>>>> access to computer people with an insane breadth of backgrounds
>>>> and opinions. And they are willing to share.
>>>>
>>>> A few days ago my daughter asked for an opinion as to a computer
>>>> language for her to learn. No, she doesn't have a project in mind,
>>>> which would have at least focused the discussion a little bit. She
>>>> is a university librarian, however, should that have any bearing
>>>> on the discussion. She has access to a moderate amount of
>>>> materials for "Alice", which apparently her school uses for
>>>> programming introduction.
>>>>
>>>> My advice, which should be considered highly flawed, was to take
>>>> advantage of the "Alice" materials as a first, quick step. Follow
>>>> that with perhaps either some work in Python or Java, with the
>>>> Java due to her constant involvement in tiny web projects.
>>>>
>>>> If the Python or Java settles, and the itch continues, I was
>>>> suggesting a second language, possibly data base oriented for the
>>>> library work, or something derived from either FORTH or LISP for
>>>> the mind expansion properties. As yet another alternative -
>>>> cshell(?) since she prefers the macintoy.
>>>>
>>>> (I had a relative utterly in love with FORTH and very good at it
>>>> also. Unfortunately, he thought _everybody_ should program in
>>>> it... Not a very successful idea unfortunately.)
>>>>
>>>> The multipart question here seems to be:
>>>> 1) Is there a proper solid resource for building some programming
>>>> skill that I should have know about and don't?
>>>> 2) Did I suggest a moderately reasonable approach in the eyes of
>>>> people who _actaully_ program?
>>>> 3) Is there probably a better approach I should have known about?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to all for the use of their bandwidth.
>>>>
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>>
>>
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