[ale] Fedora grousing

Wed Oct 23 10:16:31 EDT 2013

Scott,

I do contribute. I am a member of openSUSE have been since 2008, a
user since 1998. I had a standing with the guys from Fedora, until F18
and I went on a rant.

If fact, I had asked to help with Fedora here in Atlanta as
ambassador, but there someone here already, plus, I really can't do
both. openSUSE has plus me up from Ambassador to Coordinator which is
cool.

At a few shows I had three laptops so that people could compare
openSUSE, Fedora, and Debian.

I would tell people if you are working in a RHEL shop, instead of
running Debian/Ubuntu, why not run Fedora.  Hell I did, I would even
hang out in the chat room help others with issues. That why I was so
shock at the direction they went.

I got an issue with my Fedora 17 laptop that I need to ask a question on.

I may take a look at F20.

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Scott McBrien <smcbrien at gmail.com> wrote:
> You guys should take a look at the installer for F20, it's much improved.  I've not done a ton with the partitioning side of things through the interactive installer, but other aspects that you guys have outlined as problematic, like package selection, are much better.
>
> Jim, you can now specify disks you want to use  with the --onlydisk option, which can be a list, and it will use just those for the installation.  IIRC, this is an argument to the ignoredisk command, which is checked before clearpart.
>
> Also, you can have a separate /usr partition.  The reason you couldn't separate /bin was because it had mount and a bunch of other commands you needed for booting the machine.  That stuff now exists in the dracut image, so you can bootstrap and still get /usr mounted.
>
> Sadly, the Fedora community decided that their target audience was desktop users, and not very advanced ones, and started architecting their distro that way.  The Fedora guys who work for Red Hat have started taking a heavier hand in these decisions after the community led anaconda rewrite as changed made in Fedora will one day affect RHEL as well.  As a result of that, you should see a bunch of your complaints with anaconda resolved.
>
> Someone else complained of endless .'s in their kickstart.  I also experienced that recently.  Turns out, a syntax change between releases ( I know, *groan* ) was the culprit.  For me, I had to add the volgroup command to explicitly define the volume groups prior to referencing them in the logvol commands.  Turns out, in the GUI installer, an appropriate error message was displayed for the problem, but in the text installer, .'s of infinity and no error message were the behavior.  A bug was filed (expressing my dissatisfaction at the lack of error message or any type of logging), I expect it to be closed in the next month or so.  If this isn't your issue causing the dots of doom, you might take out the text command from your kickstart and look at it in the GUI installer, then file a bug for any discrepancies not appropriately highlighted.
>
> I think its great that you guys are using Fedora, but cornering devs at shows is not the best way to advance your agenda.  Filing bugs is one way, but that's just complaining in a different format, it's like being a level zero contributor.  Level one would be signing up for some test days.  But if you really want a voice in the direction of the distro, you need to get in earlier than gold spin.  There is a Fedora QE team, its relatively low impact, but would get you interacting with the devs in a more constructive fashion.
>
> At the end of the day though, there's going to be stuff you don't like (systemd, bane of my existance) and you need to be able to accept that there are some things you just can't change and move on.  Community projects are kind of like that.
>
> -Scott
>
>> On Oct 23, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Payne <terrorpup at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Last year at SELF, i corner the guy that created the installer and
>> told him what a piece of shite it it. I was told under no term it
>> would change, that I wanted to custom my install to use kick start.
>> When I try to explain that mom and dad that want to try to install
>> Linux don't have kickstart.
>>
>> When I point out that try to just find the partition tool was a
>> nightmare. I was told I being unreasonable, I asked how, not every one
>> wants their hard drive wiped and replaced, and that just maybe, I like
>> to set my sizes. I was told that this is the future. We talked until
>> this person got so mad that he walked away. I was pissed (sorry), the
>> guys at the fedora table told to file a bug that might help.
>>
>> I didn't like the move move from bin and sbin to /usr/ that I can't
>> create a separate /usr partition any more.
>>
>> Anyway, I am just sadden the direction they are going too.
>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:16 AM, James Sumners <james.sumners at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Oh look, someone else that doesn't like the F18 installer --
>>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/GqUgcYcfQuV
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:10 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Chuck et al,
>>>>
>>>> As a   l o n g   time red hat then fedora user, I thought the new installer
>>>> in fedora 18 was bad implementation of a decent but unpolished idea.
>>>> I think philosophically the idea is to make it so a total newbie could get a
>>>> working install. But it was done at the expense of all the experienced
>>>> users.
>>>> The partitioning tool is nearly useless. It allows ZERO control over mdraid
>>>> partitions. It's really only useful for making a simple desktop.
>>>> The package selection is crippled as well. Again simplicity trumps
>>>> functionality.
>>>> I suspect RHEL will fork anaconda out of need.
>>>> Kickstart is a great tool but it's for very advanced users not just average
>>>> users or even many pro admins will find it in their bag of tricks. Add to it
>>>> the commands change a bit with every release and it's a recipe for rollout
>>>> headaches. And it's got bugs. The command clearpart --all doesn't support
>>>> the --ondisk= flag so it only wipes sda. That fails for a 4 disk box being
>>>> repurposed! I had to manually zero out partition tables on all drives before
>>>> pxe booting kickstart of F19. And the current anaconda only understands raid
>>>> 1 with 2 partitions. A 3 or 4 will lock it up (spits dots on the screen and
>>>> hangs).
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, it looks like Fedora is taking the path of decreasing flexibility to
>>>> increase ease of use without providing a means to support the familiar
>>>> extensive customizations. If it's an attempt to gain users by lowering the
>>>> bar for user skill, I strongly disagree. Winders and sMac are perfect for
>>>> the clueless masses. I don't want throngs of mentally lazy newbies using
>>>> sophisticated and dangerously powerful tools like Linux. Granted, Fedora
>>>> ships with all services off and selinux on full enforcing so it's quite
>>>> secure. But for noobs, that security is hidden from view and thus more
>>>> computer magic.
>>>> </rant>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Sumners
>>> http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/
>>>
>>> "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts
>>> pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it
>>> is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become
>>> drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."
>>>
>>> Missionaria Protectiva, Text QIV (decto)
>>> CH:D 59
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Terror PUP a.k.a
>> Chuck "PUP" Payne
>>
>> (678) 636-9678
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux.
>> -----------------------------------------
>> openSUSE -- en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup
>> openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member
>> Community Manager -- Southeast Linux Foundation (SELF)
>> skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup
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>>
>> Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD,  an app you want
>> to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE
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>
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-- 
Terror PUP a.k.a
Chuck "PUP" Payne

(678) 636-9678
-----------------------------------------
Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux.
-----------------------------------------
openSUSE -- en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup
openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member
Community Manager -- Southeast Linux Foundation (SELF)
skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup
freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein
Register Linux Userid: 155363

Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD,  an app you want
to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE
Studio a try. www.susestudio.com.
See you at Southeast Linux Fest, June 7-9, 2013 in Charlotte, NC.
www.southeastlinuxfest.org