[ale] way OT - used car buying tips - yea or nea - PT 2
Alex Carver
agcarver+ale at acarver.net
Tue Nov 27 22:40:46 EST 2012
Some of the points are good but a few concern me enough to respond.
First, overinflating your tires isn't going to change your fuel economy
by more than a percent or two. What it will do, however, is shorten the
life of your suspension components (and possibly a few other
components). The tires are just as much a part of the suspension system
as the struts and springs. The rest of the suspension is tuned
expecting a specific tire pressure (including allowances for tire
heating). Keep it where the manufacturer recommends. The money you'll
barely save from fuel over the entire life of the vehicle will be
outstripped by the cost of one set of new shocks and struts and anything
else damaged by heavy vibration. Proper tire inflation also ensures
that the tires wear evenly and maintain good traction on the road.
Overinflated tires have small contact patches (which is why the fuel
economy goes up slightly) but that can result in less control of the car.
Second, the K&N filters require frequent maintenance. They do capture a
lot of particulate matter owing to the fact that they are wet medium
filters but they do have a few side effects. One is that they will
choke quickly requiring frequent washing and lubrication. Second, if
they dry out, they end up more porous than standard dry medium filters
which allows more particulates into the engine. Third, they have a mild
tendency to off-gas or emit vapors from the saturation oil. Not all
engines have handled ingesting these vapors very well. K&N's work
reasonably well for some abusive environments like the diesel engines of
semis which see a lot of dust, debris and soot but not as well in
regular consumer vehicles. However, those big diesels can also handle a
lot of abuse, more than a consumer vehicle.
Third, synthetic oil isn't exactly all dinosaurs and trees. There are
several additives in synthetics that aren't present in standard oil.
Older engines are not always compatible with synthetic oil so switch oil
types with caution.
Some places that also knock down fuel efficiency would be the ignition
system (electrically leaky wires, fouled plugs), leaky piston rings
(allows blow-by of the vapors into the crankcase before ignition), worn
cylinder valves and seats (also allows blow-by), leaky gaskets (head
gasket, valve cover gasket, PCV valve gasket, etc.), leaky air hoses and
vacuum hoses (more prevalent in older cars), worn emission control
components (PCV valve, vapor recovery canister, O2 sensor, throttle
sensors, worn or fouled fuel injectors or carburetor if the engine is
old enough), and a few other things like the thermostatic valve, clogged
radiator (engine temperature affects combustion), or worn engine mounts
(causes the engine to work harder if the mounts shift the engine out of
alignment).
On 11/27/2012 18:56, Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Here is some additional info on my car buying capers. Later down the road, when I have time, I want to say some things about the car finding and buying process. But now, I want to say some things about maintaining the new used vehicle.
>
> This refers back to the thread of the 11/12/12 time frame.
>
> I did end up buying a used 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe, which I like very much. I've been doing some research into gas mileage and maintenance. If you have a Hyundai, this may apply directly to you. If you have another brand of car, this may apply indirectly. All of this represents my opinions and experience and your mileage may vary.
>
> What should you do when you first get your used car? If you bought it from a dealer, you will have a temporary tag number. After 15 days or so, when the dealer has put in the title transfer paperwork, you have to visit the local tag office and complete the transfer to your name. If you live in an emissions inspection county, the dealer should have taken care of that. Be aware that you cannot sell your old car to an individual in such a county without a valid emissions test. If you're trading the car in and they'll auction it, this may not be an issue. If the check engine light is on, the car will fail the test. Also, obviously, you have to contact your insurance company and get a policy on the car. You should also call the customer service department of the car maker and register your ownership of the vehicle. This will enable them to notify you of recalls and such.
>
> Many people always take their cars to the dealer for maintenance, especially with new ones. Note that, if you do not follow the prescribed maintenance schedule, particularly with power train related items, you can void your car's warranty. You don't have to do this at the dealer, but you have to be able to prove critical maintenance was done. Using the dealer has the advantage that they can warn you about pending scheduled maintenance, warn you about recalls, they use OEM parts, and they may have more knowledge and training about the specific needs of your car. The disadvantage is that dealer maintenance is usually more expensive, sometimes a lot more. They labor rate at the Hyundai dealer in Chamblee is $ 110 / hr, I believe. Dealers generally report their maintenance to the car maker and to CarFax, so this will show up at other dealers and on the car's records when it is sold. Independent mechanics don't generally do this reporting. If you use an independent mechan!
> ic, keep all your maintenance records.
>
> I normally like to find an independent mechanic that I trust and stick with them unless there is a reason to go to the dealer. The reputable ones will use OEM parts for critical systems and quality (not the cheapest around) aftermarket parts when appropriate. They will know the pros and cons of each and will be glad to explain it to you. If you ask, they will use OEM parts regardless. They will warrant their work for 12 mo / 12,000 miles or something similar. If you bring your own parts, typically, the warranty is only for their labor.
>
> If you had your used car inspected before purchase, you should already know about any major maintenance that it obviously needs. This will not necessarily include the scheduled maintenance, since the maintenance history may not be known.
>
> There is at least one item which you may need to attend to which is not obvious, is buried in the engine, which can fail abruptly without warning, and which can catastrophically damage your engine if it does fail. That is the timing belt. This controls the synchronization of the valve timing with the rotation of the crankshaft. An engine can be classified as a non-interference engine or an interference engine. In a non interference engine, if the timing belt breaks, the car will generally shut down and refuse to start. You'll need a tow truck, but the risk to the engine itself is not terribly great. That doesn't mean there will be no damage though.
>
> This is not the case with an interference engine. In this type of engine, if the valves are all the way open in the down position, and the piston comes all the way to the up position, the two will collide. This normally never happens. However, if the timing belt breaks, it can happen. This gets ugly very fast, and you can easily be looking at a $ 3000 bill to rebuild the engine.
>
> If you get a used car, or a new one for that matter, you must find out if it has a timing belt. (Chains don't generally need maintenance unless they're noisy, as I understand it.) If it does have a timing belt, you must find out if it's an interference engine. One way to do this is to check with the dealer's service dept. Another way is to look up the timing belt on gates.com (which makes belts) or an auto parts website. If you DO have a timing belt, and if you DO have an interference engine, then you MUST religiously change the timing belt at the recommended interval, which is, in my case, every 60,000 miles.
>
> Now, some of you may be saying that you have a car with a timing belt, and you've gone longer than the recommended interval, or have never replaced it, and haven't had a problem. I would say I'm glad you've been lucky. Obviously, the belt doesn't just snap at 60,001 miles. Timing belt replacement is not cheap or easy on my car, and will run me about $ 600. However, I do not wish to take the risk of wrecking my engine and then having a $ 3000 bill to deal with. So, I am going to PREEMPTIVELY replace the belt if I cannot prove it's been done within the last 60,000 miles. That's something you might want to consider when purchasing a used car with a timing belt. It's also what my mechanic recommends, and I trust him and know him enough to know it's not just because he wants to make money. Had I known this car had a timing belt, I would have still bought it, since it was about the only one we found that met my criteria in my price range, but it is a hassle that I now have!
> to deal with.
>
> By the way, the water pump is generally buried right in the middle of the engine along with the timing belt, and is sometimes run by the timing belt. If the water pump seizes, it can also wreck the engine by jamming the timing belt. So, it is recommended that the water pump be replaced along with the timing belt. It is also suggested that you get a complete timing belt kit, which includes the timing belt, the water pump, idler pulleys, tensioners, and other miscellaneous accessories related to the system and that they all be replaced at the same time.
>
> Once I learned more than I ever wanted to know about timing belts, I decided to turn my attention to the vehicle's gas mileage. The car I bought is rated by the EPA to have 18 - 22 MPG with an average of about 20. On my first fill up, I reset the trip meter and started tracking miles traveled. I created a little fuel log for myself in a text file. Now this car has a 6 cylinder engine. The Toyota Camry sedan I had had a 4 cylinder engine. While not a race car, the Santa Fe does have decent pickup when you need it. I will admit to having been a bit heavy on the throttle during the first tank of fuel, as it is a good feeling to get away from the traffic lights in a decent, but not reckless, period of time.
>
> At the second fill up, I checked the gas mileage and was depressed to find that I was averaging 16.8 MPG, well below what the car is supposed to be capable of. I immediately did three things.
>
> First, I pumped up the tires to 36 PSI when hot, which, when temperature change is accounted for, equates to about 2-3 PSI above what they're rated to run at when they're cold. Tire pressure varies approximately 1 PSI for every 10 degrees F change in temperature. So, if I pump them up to about 36 PSI hot, and let them cool, they'd probably be at about 32 PSI or 33 PSI. You never want to exceed the max pressure on the sidewall of the tire. And, when summer comes, with 100 degree temperatures, the pressure could naturally increase by 5 PSI or so.
>
> Second, I changed the oil and went to 5w20 oil, which is recommended in my owners manual for fuel economy and all weather operation. Every car is different, so check your manual. Don't just assume you can put in a certain weight of oil. I use synthetic oil in all my vehicles except my old Mercedes diesel. Synthetic provides more engine protection over the long term and you can run 6000 miles between changes instead of 3000. I know that the manual says you can run 7500 miles in this particular car, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. By the way, synthetic is still dinosaur oil, but it is more refined and has better additives and better viscosity control.
>
> I like the Mobile 1 brand and that's what my lube shop has, so I'm running Mobile 1 5w20 synthetic.
>
> http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Home/Homepage.aspx
>
> Third, I decided to lighten my foot on the throttle. When I step on the throttle sort of hard, not trying to spin tires or anything, the engine quickly revs up to about 3300 rpm and the transmission shifts to the next gear. If I keep the throttle pressure up, this keeps happening until the transmission is in high (4th) gear. So, the engine spends lots of time at higher engine revs. Also, I would normally be cruising at 68 or so on the freeway. Once the transmission reaches its highest gear, going faster only makes the engine run faster. Also, aerodynamic friction increases exponentially after 60 - 70 MPH. So, I decided that, if I could do so safely, I was going to accelerate gently and boringly, and try to get the transmission to up shift at 2500 RPM rather than 3300 RPM. Also, I decided to drive at 60 MPH on the freeway, until that drives me insane. I can say that I noticed a definite decrease in engine noise at highway speed after going to the new lighter weight s!
> ynthetic oil. I don't know what was in the car before, but it is likely that it was not 5w20 oil.
>
> And, I'm happy to say, that I've just completed the 3rd fill up and my gas mileage was 19.7 MPG! That's almost a 3 MPG improvement. Now I know all this is not very scientific and many variables are not tightly controlled, but I was very happy to see that. I've been running with the AC off, so summer readings may be worse. However, cars run better in warm temperatures and there is a different summer blend of gas, so we'll see.
>
> By the way, here's a site where you can log and share your MPG. It's down for maintenance now but I used it before to see what other Santa Fe owners were getting. I have not used it otherwise as of yet.
>
> http://www.fuelly.com/
>
> In a few days, I will be installing a high performance K & N replacement air filter, which should allow the car to breathe better and get better MPG. These are reusable and cleanable. They are coated with a light coating of oil, which must be replenished when the filter is cleaned. If you have one of these, you can get a refresh kit with an aerosol can of oil to coat the filter with from K & N. This is important, otherwise, the filter won't trap dust properly.
>
> There are a large number of online parts suppliers. The ones we're most familiar with have brick and mortar stores, like AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, Pep Boys, and O'Reilly Auto Parts, etc. You can generally order online with them, or order and pickup locally. But there are many more. Just google the name of your car and a particular part and you'll get lots of options. You'll have to read customer reviews, etc. to find out if they're reputable or not.
>
> I ordered my air filters from Auto Anything (autoanything.com) just because their prices were cheaper for these filters. In this case, I'm getting free shipping and I'm not paying sales tax. I haven't used them before, but they said they shipped the goods already, so it should be a good deal. It pays to shop around. Keep in mind, if you bring your own parts to your mechanic, you don't get their warranty on the parts even if they install them. For something critical like a timing belt that could damage the car if it fails, you may want to let the mechanic source the parts.
>
> I will have to be replacing some tires in the not too distant future. When I do, I'm going to ask for a smooth running tread pattern which should also improve MPG somewhat. I don't do any off roading, other than a very occasional dirt or gravel road.
>
> During my research on oil, I started researching the filter. Since the engine has to work to pump the oil, an inefficient filter will cost MPG and could lead to problems with the engine. Before, I've always used the filter provided by the lube shop, since I didn't think there was much difference. I may have been wrong on that point. As it turns out, my lube shop uses Fram filters. (If you're a Fram fan, I'm not bashing them, just sharing information below.)
>
> I googled
>
> hyundai "santa fe" "oil filter"
>
> and various alterations on that theme.
>
> I found lots of fluff, hot opinions, and lots of useless noise. Standard internet. However, I did find some useful data. Apparently, the Hyundai's are finicky about oil, and their oil pump doesn't put out much pressure. I found this thread.
>
> http://www.elantraclub.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t2910.html
>
> Here's a quote from the thread.
>
> "I did a check with OE, Wix, Fram and Mobile 1 filters with a base pressure of 30 psi going into the filter. Here is the pressure coming OUT of the filters:
>
> OEM: 29 Wix: 28.2 Mobile 1: 28.0 Fram: 25.0"
>
> Now, I don't know exactly which parts he tested, but, as you can see, the OEM filter from Hyundai creates a 1 PSI drop in pressure going through the filter, whereas the Fram is 5 PSI. This is a very significant drop.
>
> They also said there was a TSB (technical service bulletin) telling Hyundai service techs to replace aftermarket filters with OEM ones if the car came in with a problem related to lubrication, like ticking sounds, etc. People on the threads claiming to have inside knowledge said the whole thing was initiated due to problems with Fram products.
>
> So, while I don't normally mind using aftermarket parts, I've decided to start using only Hyundai OEM oil filters from now on.
>
> How do you get OEM parts like this if you want them and you lube shop, etc. doesn't stock them. There are some dealers which sell parts on line, and some other sources online which claim to have OEM parts. I haven't used them. In my case, I just called ahead then drove down to Rick Case Hyundai in Roswell and bought a case of 10 OEM oil filters for my car, which also happen to fit my wife's Hyundai Sonata. The list price on these is $ 8.11, but they sold them to me for $ 5.50 ea. As it turns out, there is a hard washer that goes on the drain pan plug which is recommended to be replaced each time, so I got 10 of those at $ 0.85 ea. So, for $ 6.35, I get high quality OEM parts for this particular purpose.
>
> The OEM part has another benefit which the aftermarket part may not, if my research is correct. I believe it has an anti drain back valve. This keeps a certain amount of oil from draining back into the pan from the engine when the car is shut off. Therefore, when the engine is started, it has lubrication almost immediately.
>
> So, here's a summary of what I have done, or plan to do to my new used car for legalities, performance, longevity, and gas mileage.
>
> Legalities, housekeeping, and preventive maintenance.
>
> 01) register the ownership and license plate with the county
> 02) get on the insurance policy
> 03) register with the car maker
> 04) change the timing belt, water pump, and related components (unless I can prove it was done)
>
> The following relate to gas mileage but some also relate to the longevity of the car.
>
> Operation
>
> 05) lighten my foot on the throttle
>
> Oil System
>
> 06) switch to 5w20 oil (per the owner's manual)
> 07) switch to synthetic oil
> 08) switch to OEM oil filter and drain pan seal
>
> Air Intake
>
> 09) switch to high performance air filter
>
> The air filter I'm getting is a drop in replacement. A so called cold air intake which uses a different air pipe and filter could help even more. I saw a tv show once which indicated this might require retuning the car's engine control computer for the best results. I can't confirm or deny that.
>
> Tires
>
> 10) switch to smooth running tires
> 11) increase tire pressure slightly
>
> The topic of tire pressure deserves some more attention. Here's one of many links you find if you google tire pressure vs temperature.
>
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp%3Ftechid%3D73&sa=U&ei=NXG1UIChCZOs8AS-mYDQBQ&ved=0CCMQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFK8ekv8wAGwy-nVmSxDeN8jY0yRA
>
> This says that you lose 1 PSI of pressure every month. Also, as a rule of thumb, you gain 1 PSI of pressure for every 10 degrees F increase in temperature and lose 1 PSI of pressure for every 10 degrees F decrease in temperature. It also says the seasonal variation between summer and winter is about 50 degrees F and the day night variation is about 20 degrees F.
>
> Running with higher pressure will get you better gas mileage, to a point. It may make your tires wear better, to a point. However, you can have too much of a good thing. Too much pressure reduces traction, and increases stopping distances, and could make the center of the tire wear unevenly.
>
> You may find websites, I've seen them, which advocate running your tires at 50 PSI, for example. This is a bad idea. The maximum tire pressure stamped on the side of my tires is 44 PSI. This is the maximum, not the running pressure. You don't want to exceed it. Let's say I pump the tires to 50 PSI in the winter when they're cold, at night time temperatures of 30 degrees. Let's say, six months later, they've lost 6 PSI due to attrition. So, at 30 degrees, they're at 44 PSI. However, it's not 30 degrees, it's 100 degrees. With heat buildup from running, they could get to be 120 degrees. This is enough to add 9 PSI so, now they're at 53 PSI and running very hot. I'm in serious danger of a blowout.
>
> So, if you are going to increase tire pressure, do so in moderation. I run mine at 36 PSI when hot, after I've been driving a few minutes.. That equates to about 34 PSI when they cool off at the same ambient temperature and maybe 32 PSI when we go from day to night. The door plate on my car says 30 PSI for some of the tires and 32 PSI for the others.
>
> Also, don't forget to check the pressure in your spare tire periodically.
>
> I hope this info is helpful. Please share your related tips as well.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9 Mail.
> Please excuse my potential brevity.
>
> (To whom it may concern. My email address has changed. Replying to former
> messages prior to 03/31/12 with my personal address will go to the wrong
> address. Please send all personal correspondence to the new address.)
>
> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
> call on the phone. I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
> mailing lists and such. I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)
>
> Ron Frazier
> 770-205-9422 (O) Leave a message.
> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
>
>
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