[ale] just installed LibreOffice in Linux, should have been easier

[Ron Frazier]

Hi Don,

I want to thank you up front for the knowledge and help you're sharing.  
I appreciate that very much.  See comments in line.

On 03/13/2011 08:10 PM, Don Lachlan wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Ron Frazier
> <atllinuxenthinfo at c3energy.com>  wrote:
>    
>> I went to the software center in hopes that I could remove just one
>> thing the way I did in the Windows control panel.  I found 5 or 6
>> things, and proceeded to remove them.  I was hoping I was done, but went
>> to Synaptic to find out.  I found still more openoffice entries, and
>> removed them.  Searching for openoffice in Synaptic initially led to a
>> large number of search results, and it would have been difficult to
>> highlight them all and select them for removal.  Also, it's difficult to
>> know if they should be removed, depending on how they are titled.
>>      
> Ubuntu uses periodic forks from Debian for its releases. GNU/Linux in
> general, and Debian (and its forks) especially, split software into
> very small component pieces. Where a software package on Windows would
> be a single entry, Ubuntu may list dozens; for a large application
> like OpenOffice, there is usually a virtual package which depends upon
> the dozens of component pieces - tell the system to install or
> uninstall that one package, everything else goes with it. For other
> large applications, there will be a primary package which holds the
> core and depends upon other components.
>
> I'm not very familiar with Ubuntu's Software Center (I had to look it
> up), but it seems to be another front end to APT (and thus dpkg) that
> presents a very limited view of major applications. Maybe it was
> listing those virtual packages, maybe it keeps its own map of packages
> to uber-package. Don't know, so let's talk about Synaptic.
>
> Search in Synaptic (or using aptitude or apt-get) and you will find
> all the OpenOffice primary packages, dependencies and optional
> packages, but also packages for other software which are specifically
> designed to interact with OpenOffice. It may seem cluttered now, but
> it's just different - give it some time and you'll be able to pick out
> the virtual package or primary package that everything else depends
> upon.
>
>    

Hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to get rid of LibreOffice (which I 
don't) is there a way to identify the master package, so to speak?  A 
Synaptic search yields 22 items.  Nothing jumps out as being a master 
record.  There's no mention of it in the application in Software Center.

>>> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/libreoffice-gets-3-3-0-stable-version-released-ppa-installation-instructions-included.html
>>>        
>> I wish I had known this at first.  I just went to libreoffice.org and
>> went to their download page and followed their instructions.  There was
>> no mention of this process whatsoever.  I didn't see any need to search
>> outside of the project's own site.
>>      
>    
>> I don't really understand the difference between a repository and a
>> package.  However, I don't think point and click and go installs for the
>> top 5 Linux systems, with integration to that system's package manager,
>> is too much to ask.
>>      
> The package is the .deb or .rpm file; the repository is a location
> where packages are stored and fetched by applications like APT or yum.
> Your system likely uses multiple repositories, for regular updates,
> security updates, backports, etc.  Sometimes, vendors offer their
> packages via repository, though this is less common. The reason for
> this is It's A Lot Of Work. Even building packages is a significant
> investment.
>
> I don't know if the PPA is by LibreOffice or if it is a separate
> person/group who was trying to offer the service, but I suspect it's a
> separate group and so the LibreOffice web site would not list it.
>
>
>    
>> I did use dpkg, as described in the installation instructions.  However,
>> I can find no evidence that LibreOffice is installed on my system,
>> either in Synaptic, nor in Software Center.  I even tried the first two
>> commands in the link you sent, to add the PPA and update the database.
>> Still nothing.  At this point, I'd like to get rid of the original
>> install, if possible.  and reinstall using the procedure you linked to.
>> I don't know how to do that.  I could just activate the new procedure
>> using APT, but then I might have two duplicate, possibly conflicting
>> installs of LibreOffice.  Help!?
>>      
> I saw your update. Going back to packages and repositories, after you
> add the repository, you need to install the packages from that
> repository. Regarding the machine you already installed packages on,
> you can likely add the PPA and it will update properly when a new
> update comes out. If the packages from the LibreOffice web site are
> the same as what's in the PPA (or at least similar revision numbers),
> your system will see a new version in the PPA as a regular update.
>
>    

I implemented the rest of the LibreOffice install procedure from the PPA 
on the 2nd machine.  It was certainly much easier than the original 
procedure I used.  It did a LOT of stuff in the terminal.  Hopefully, 
the right stuff, and not harmful.  I have the frequency scaling monitor 
in my Gnome panel.  I noticed, afterward, that both my CPU cores had 
switched to performance mode, instead of on demand mode, and they were 
running full blast all the time, rather than scaling down.  I don't know 
how they got that way.  I certainly didn't change them.  I'm suspicious 
of the LibreOffice install sequence, but can't prove it was the 
culprit.  I hope to install the PPA on the first machine later.  If I 
count each OS as a separate machine (even though some have multiple OS's 
on the same hardware), I have to do this conversion on 3 Linux machines 
and 5 Windows machines.  So, you can see how that original procedure I 
found put me off substantially.

>> I don't have a big problem with tarballs, kind of like a zip file.
>> However, I think I should be able to extract it, click on the result,
>> and the application should install and hook into the package manager for
>> auto updates and easy uninstalls.
>>      
> My daughter wants a pony for her birthday, that doesn't mean it's realistic.
>
> Yes, I can come up with solutions which meet your requirements;
> however, it's impractical when you're accommodating dozens of
> distributions, architectures, versions, etc. for THOUSANDS of software
> projects.
>
>    

I understand what you're saying.  I'm a geek, so I can edit config files 
and go through elaborate procedures when necessary, if I have a motive 
to.  I've been around the block for 27 years or so with Windows.  
Believe me, especially pre year 2000, configuring software and 
installing it or uninstalling it could be a real bear.  There is a whole 
sub industry of "installers" for Windows.  However, modern applications 
installations, for the most part, are double click it, answer some 
prompts, done, it works, use it.  That's what Linux developers are 
competing with if they want mind share of average users who are not 
ultra geeks.  I'm sure many would say the diversity of Linux is the 
beauty of Linux, but as you pointed out, it also comes with a price.  If 
I were to develop for Mac, I have maybe 2 major versions to worry about 
- 9 and 10.  If Windows, maybe 3 - 5 versions.  For Linux, dozens or 
hundreds.  So, I can see how that would be a problem.  If I were a 
developer, I think I would focus on the top 5 or so, as I mentioned.  If 
each project could make their applications installers click and go, but 
compatible with the distro package manager, then that would really help 
average users get things going the way they want.

>> As I mentioned above, it's very hard to install or uninstall something
>> like LibreOffice or Java, for example, from Synaptic.  Doing a search
>> will yield many lines and you don't know what to select.  Now, I
>> wouldn't want to get rid of Synaptic, since it is very useful.  However,
>>      
> First, it's not very hard, it's very hard for you. Your experience is
> important, but that doesn't mean it's universal. You're walking into
> this with certain prior experience and lacking certain experience - I
> think if you had more positive experience with dpkg/APT/synaptic,
> perhaps buying someone a beer so they'll give you a 15 minute
> tutorial, it wouldn't seem hard at all. :)
>
>    
>> for something like this, I just want to go to software center, acquaint
>> it with a provider's website, if needed, click LibreOffice, and click
>> install, and have it all work.  If I want to uninstall it, I just want
>> to click that one app name, and click uninstall.
>>      
> I can appreciate that. However, I think your desire for that is
> because that's what your accustomed to with Windows, because you find
> it "better", not because it's objectively "better". It's also, to
> bring up the issue again, A Lot Of Work - on a level that I don't
> think you can appreciate. And it fragments the UI - "Why do I have to
> go to Synaptic to upgrade Foobar when I can upgrade OpenOffice from
> the Software Center? I want Foobar listed in the Software Center!"
>
>    

I respectfully say, in my opinion, it is better.  I see something like 
Software Center as the next logical advance beyond Synaptic, but do not 
say that Synaptic should go away.  I totally understand why Ubuntu put 
it in, and I like the concept, although I think it needs refinement.  
There shouldn't be conflicting data between the two programs, and what's 
in Synaptic should not be missing from the software center.  As a user, 
when I install LibreOffice, or Pidgin, or the latest planetarium 
software, what I want to do is to create documents, or spreadsheets, or 
presentations, or make VOIP calls, or find the best stars to point my 
telescope at.  I don't want to spend inordinate amounts of time or 
research figuring out how to install and configure those applications.  
If I can just double click the installer, answer prompts, and go, then I 
get to what I really want to do with the computer, which is not maintain 
it.  Now, as a geek, there are times when I want to get down and dirty 
and see what's under the covers and how it works.  However, speaking 
from experience, my friends (other than you guys) and family NEVER do.   
They just want to use the machine to accomplish a purpose and that's 
all.  If they need to install something, it needs to be very obvious and 
simple, or something I can talk them through on the phone, or I end up 
doing it.  I'm going to hopefully drive up to my Dad's house this week 
to do maintenance on his machine.  I could talk him though the 
procedures, but he wouldn't want to take the two hours or so that it 
will need, so I do it, because I know it needs doing.  I'm the same way 
about my car as they are about their computers.  I want to turn the key 
and go to town.  That's all.  If it doesn't work, I have a mechanic that 
I trust to figure it out, if I can afford him.  I can't blame other 
people for the way they think, and they can't understand why anyone 
would have the level of interest in the way the computer works that I do.

> *nix has a very different paradigm than Microsoft or Apple do, which I
> would think is part of why we're here. I think this episode has shown
> the OpenOffice->LibreOffice migration didn't have to be as much work
> as you experienced, and rather than trying to force things to behave
> as they do in Windows, you can find the method that is standard for
> your distribution or environment.
>
> I'm serious about the beer. Best training sessions I've given were at
> a bar rail.
>
> -Lachlan
>
>    
By making Linux easier to use, and more accessible to average people, it 
will gain mind share and new users faster than ever.  That way, people 
will see that they probably don't have to use expensive proprietary 
solutions.

Sincerely,

Ron

-- 

(PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
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mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new messages very quickly.)

Ron Frazier

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linuxdude AT c3energy.com