[ale] Kind words for Windows? - was The latest from Gigabyte

[Ron Frazier]

Hi Tim,

I like to see everyone's 2 cents.  How the heck did you type that 
symbol?  Anyway, see comments in line.

On 02/08/2011 10:06 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
> Just my 2¢:
>
> Looking for a windows experience in Linux is just a recipe for
> disappointment and frustration.
>
> I came to Linux as a developer. I was in the windows world and there
> were so many languages and tools I wanted to learn and explore (still
> do). But it seemed like every time I started traveling down an avenue I
> would hit another paywall. There was another IDE to buy or another
> resource kit or it simply didn't exist in the windows world. I was
> fortunate to stumble on this thing called Linux in the mid-late '90s and
> suddenly a whole new world of learning opened up to me -- for free!
>
>    
It's great that Linux is free to use, and it's a big draw for it.  When 
I get time, it's also great that many of the applications can be 
downloaded for free without nearly so much worrying about viruses.  Of 
course, Windows has about 4 million lines of code, so I've heard, and 
billions of dollars worth of R&D behind it.  Presuming Linux is 
similarly complex, it certainly wasn't free in that regard.  Thousands 
of people had to devote thousands of hours to development over 30 
years.  Frankly, I don't know why all those people contributed all that 
time to it, but I'll be glad to use it, and contribute where I can.  
Also, let's not forget that, Mark Shuttleworth contributed (I think) $ 
10,000,000 to jump start Ubuntu AND had to use all that great historical 
open source code AND Canonical continues to funnel $$$ into maintaining 
the project.  So, Linux certainly isn't free in that regard either.  I 
don't know the history of the other distros.
> I went through a phase of wanting my Linux experience to be more like
> windows. I think most users do. It probably took me a couple years to
> break out of that (I joined the Linux world circa SuSE 6.x I think, so I
> guess that makes me relative new comer). I started breaking out by
> diving into the shell. And as I moved back and forth between windows and
> Linux I became increasingly frustrated at what I couldn't easily do in
> windows.
>
>    
Several people have advised me to learn more about the shell, and I'm 
sure I will over time.  I guess I would say that I don't so much want 
Linux to be like Windows (or Mac) as I want whatever machines I use to 
be easy to use and intuitive.  In the modern world, pointing at 
something with a mouse and clicking to select it and double clicking to 
activate it and (at least on Windows) right clicking to get a menu, are 
universal computer user behaviors.  I want any computer I use, 
regardless of OS, to act in a similar manner and respect these 
traditions and conventions.  The same goes for things like the X in the 
upper right to close a program, and the minimize and maximize buttons, 
and resizing and moving windows.  (Ubuntu drove me insane for 2 weeks by 
moving those buttons to the left, until I figured out how to put them 
back on the right.)  Fortunately, Gnome provides an environment where 
you do these expected things and pretty much get expected results.
> For the most part, I think in ideas not pictures. Words and language are
> a natural expression of ideas and a shell allows me to express an idea
> in a more or less natural way. A GUI presents visual stimuli that I can
> respond to. That has a lot of value but it doesn't include the value of
> expressing my ideas and building on them. A GUI is conversational;
> working in a shell is more of a monologue. But a GUI will always dumb
> down the underlying system. It's a good place to enter but I wouldn't
> want to stay there.
>
>    
I think, with a well designed GUI, you can do anything that way you 
could with a command line, except maybe chain a bunch of commands 
together, and that could probably be accommodated too.  The key words 
are well designed.  Believe me, I've seen some GUI's that were anything 
but dumbed down.  They had about 100 check boxes, radio buttons, and 
blanks, and tabs.  I've also seen command line utilities with 100 
options.  I used to write stuff like that when I was a programmer.  As a 
user, I'd still rather have the GUI than a command line utility with the 
same 100 options.  Of course, as someone pointed out, you can have a GUI 
front end to the command line, and have your cake and eat it too.  The 
problem is, most of the command line creators don't create the GUI.  The 
reason I'd rather have the GUI is that it's intuitive (if well 
designed).  It will immediately present all the options you have at your 
disposal, allow you to select them, tell their purpose, show you status, 
and let you back out of reversible or stoppable processes.  Here's the 
thing, while I consider myself somewhat of a hacker, in the good sense, 
I'm a human too.  So, much of the time, I want to actually use the 
computer to do neat stuff, instead of working on the computer to make it 
work.  Now, if I have to manipulate the swap file once or twice per 
year, I don't necessarily want to have to memorize, or research all the 
commands and all the options involved in this task.  I just want to go 
into a menu and click some things and get it done and get gone.  Now, if 
someone had to do these tasks all the time, they might be more efficient 
on the command line.  But, to do it just occasionally, a GUI is much 
more efficient and self explanatory.  I firmly believe in exhaustive 
documentation for devices to be used, but I also believe you should be 
able to use most of the functions without the docs.  A GUI helps 
accomplish that.  By the way, I had these same complaints about Windows 
pre 2000, but it is much less of an issue now.
> I think the complaints from new comers that Linux isn't as easy as
> windows is actually a reflection of the great progress Linux has made in
> lowering the technical barriers to adoption. It's close enough to
> windows and Mac now that the gaps easier to spot.
>
>    
It's at least close enough that more people are willing to consider it.  
For daily use, I get along fine with Gnome.  For maintenance and 
troubleshooting, not so much.
> It's been said elsewhere: windows has a style, Mac has a style, Linux
> has a style. Each offers things the others could benefit from. But I
> think Linux's strength will always be the expressiveness borne of its
> shell(s). It wouldn't be Linux without that (speaking from an end-user
> perspective not a system perspective).
>
>    
I like the best of both worlds philosophy.  Have the command line.  Have 
command piping.  And have the GUI.
> Linux has ruined me for windows. I get more frustrated working on
> windows systems than Linux. I get sick of the condescension from
> windows: "A System Boo Boo has occurred." OK so what f*ck does that
> mean? Where's the log? Well, there is no log but if you get the resource
> kit you can get extended error probing tools. Or you can subscribe to
> (pay for) our premium support service and get online help.
>
>    
Windows has many logs built in.  I rarely have to look at them.  But, as 
a developer, I can understand that you might feel you have to pull out 
the credit card too often.  At least for 10 of the tasks listed in my 
original post, it was either easier or much easier to solve the problem 
in windows, or it was not a problem at all.
> I'm not ashamed to say that my use of Linux is partly ideological. I had
> no clue what open source was when I installed my 1st Linux system. It's
> never lost on me that GNU/Linux is free and open source and that it gets
> better in large part through volunteer efforts. I'm willing to put up
> with some inconveniences in support of that. And willing to help where I
> can.
>
>    
I pretty much agree with that.

Ron
> On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 01:25 -0500, Ron Frazier wrote:
>    
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The line I'm quoting from Chris Fowler (below) inspired this note. If
>> you're offended, blame me, not him. But, I hope no one will be offended,
>> just spurred to thought. But, lots of it is just some random things I've
>> been thinking about, and maybe ranting for frustration about some
>> problems I've been trying to solve. I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>> but, I've been using Windows ever since it was invented. Modern versions
>> of Windows are very slick, refined, functional, and, most of the time,
>> reliable. In some ways, particularly in terms of user interface, it's
>> more advanced than the Ubuntu I'm typing this on. In some cases, I can
>> do maintenance procedures on Windows MUCH easier than I can in Linux, as
>> I've detailed to some extent in other posts.
>>
>> I'm here, basically trying to use Linux 98% of the time, for 4 reasons.
>> They are, in no particular order:
>>
>> 1) Intellectual challenge. I love to learn new things, most of the time,
>> and maybe, there might be some usable job skills I'll gain.
>>
>> 2) Windows cost, for a new PC, this is only about $ 30 - $ 50. If you
>> want to buy a copy for a build your own pc or do an upgrade, it's more
>> expensive.
>>
>> 3) Maintenance issues. Tomorrow is the 2nd Tuesday, Microsoft patch day.
>> So, I need to update the Windows side of my dual boot computers as well
>> as family members' computers. Ubuntu is similar in the number of
>> patches. I'm getting flagged by the updater every few days, and
>> sometimes there are quite a few patches. Linux is able to update without
>> a reboot more often than Windows but it certainly is not always the
>> case. Probably 1 out of 3 or 4 patch cycles asks me for a reboot.
>>
>> The package manager in Ubuntu is what I think is a great advantage over
>> Windows. In Windows, I have to update (separately) the system, non MS AV
>> system, Java, Firefox, Firefox addons, Adobe Reader, Adobe Flash,
>> Itunes, and basically anything else that connects to the Internet. It's
>> great to know that everything I've installed using the package manager
>> in Ubuntu will be updated. However, this doesn't apply to things I've
>> installed separately. So, after I'm done updating Windows, I'll do a few
>> housekeeping things on Ubuntu (on 3 computers) including: force a system
>> update via the Updater tool, update the Firefox addons, check the
>> Firefox options configuration in case something got changed, check Flash
>> rev level and configuration, and check the Java rev level. The versions
>> of these in the Ubuntu repositories sometimes lag behind the
>> manufacturers' versions, but I don't want to override the install
>> manually since Synaptic may no longer handle the updates. Usually,
>> they're not too far behind though. There are a few apps which I couldn't
>> install from the repositories, and I may have to update them manually.
>>
>> Whether Windows or Linux, I try to do periodic disk integrity checks and
>> backups. With 3 dual boot PC's of my own, plus my Son's and Dad's
>> Windows machines, this all adds up to a lot of work.
>>
>> 4) Security! This is the big one. This is one of the main reasons I'm
>> now mostly a Linux user. There are just too many security risks with
>> Windows. Now, in fairness, if Linux had a billion users, and if the
>> hackers had a financial incentive to hack it, you'd see a lot more Linux
>> viruses. Yes, I know we can debate endlessly about which system is more
>> secure, and Linux certainly has it's merits. A well patched and
>> protected Windows system is one of the most secure platforms, akin (I
>> have read), to a condo in the city with bars on the windows (no pun
>> intended). Mac is like a normal house in a suburb, and Linux is like the
>> farmhouse 20 miles in the woods. Linux is safer, to some extent, because
>> it's not as big a target. However, no OS is immune to attack,
>> particularly if the user clicks on a malicious binary file as a result
>> of a phishing attack. A poorly patched or poorly configured Linux system
>> can certainly be vulnerable.
>>
>> But, nevertheless, the lack of security problems is one big reason I'm
>> running Linux. At the moment, I'm not running anti virus on Linux, but I
>> am running the firewall using Firestarter. At some time in the future, I
>> may find it necessary to run anti virus.
>>
>> Whether on Linux or Windows, I run the NoScript addon for Firefox, which
>> disallows all scripting except for sites I explicitly trust. I think
>> that's only prudent. Combine that with Xmarks, and you can save the
>> NoScript configuration in a bookmark and make it common across all your
>> computers, Windows and Linux. That works really well.
>>
>> -1) Here's NOT a reason I'm using Linux - ease of use. (This echos the
>> sentiment in a recent letter to the editor in Linux Journal.) Frankly,
>> most of the time it's similar to Windows, sometimes it's worse. I
>> wouldn't recommend it to my Dad, unless I was still around to do setup,
>> maintenance, and troubleshooting. Ubuntu 10.04, which I'm running, is
>> the first Linux I've tried which just worked on the hardware I have.
>> (Tried previous Ubuntu. Haven't tried other distros.) Even then, I had
>> to load some proprietary drivers, but I'm OK with that. On a day to day
>> basis, Gnome is fine, and it does what I need. However, there have been
>> a number of times, witnessed by my calls for help on this forum, when
>> Ubuntu has driven me up the wall and crazy trying to do some maintenance
>> procedure or configuration. At those times, I have to go scrounging
>> through Google, forums, man pages, config files, and command lines. Now,
>> I can edit config files and scrounge for info with the best if I have
>> to, and I've done plenty of that in Windows over the last 26 years. But,
>> I believe that should be a rare occurrence, not a frequent one.
>>
>> Here are some examples of comparative experiences with Windows and
>> Linux. In general, I want to keep my Windows installs and Linux installs
>> functionally equivalent. In every case, the experience was harder with
>> Linux, and in some cases, I have no solution. Now, my intent is not to
>> rag on Linux, but a lot of people like to rag on Windows. Both are
>> tools, they have pros and cons. These are just examples, and I'm sure
>> I'll ask for help in other posts, so that's not my purpose here.
>>
>> * Plugging external monitor into laptop screws up screen resolution and
>> scrambles my icons.
>> Windows - does just fine
>> Linux - problem exists, no solution yet - reads monitor capabilities wrong
>>
>> * Desire to have fine grained control over shutdown sequence on battery
>> power when battery is low.
>> Windows - built into OS, set up parameters in minutes via GUI
>> Linux - have to install UPS control daemon - options thus far seem very
>> non obvious - few GUI's to set them up
>>
>> * Desired to run all my email on the same system. Now using Eudora OSE.
>> Windows - setup was easy and quick - double click the EXE - found my old
>> email database (from Eudora Classic) and imported - (That WASN'T quick -
>> 12 hours.)
>> Linux - setup more difficult - required running a script to install -
>> not available in repository - didn't find old database and gave no
>> choice for manual selection - program must be run from a terminal window
>> (no Double click) - I had to figure out how to put a launcher icon on
>> the desktop (should be automatic) - terminal remains open all the time
>> for whatever reason
>>
>> * Desire to be able to clone my hard drive as a backup, then just
>> install it if the main HDD dies.
>> Windows - I have a nice, sophisticated, GUI based backup tool (not free)
>> - Acronis TrueImage - I have no problem paying for good quality software
>> if I have to. People deserve to be compensated for their work. Of
>> course, if people choose to put forth a good quality free tool, like
>> this email program, I'll use it.
>> Linux - haven't found a comparable Linux tool yet - used TrueImage to
>> clone the drive and install it for testing - Windows boots fine - Linux
>> fails to find it's swap partition - I resort to a swap file - GRUB
>> freaks out the next time it updates and demands that I tell it where to
>> put itself (I'll tell it - @#*&%*! Bang! Zoom!)
>>
>> * Desire to have my HotSpotVPN account active, so my public browsing at
>> hotspots is encrypted.
>> Windows - Relatively painless. Required running two install programs.
>> Boom. Up and running.
>> Linux - haven't succeeded or really even tried yet - read the procedure
>> once - gave me a headache - not automatic - many steps - have to run
>> from terminal
>>
>> * Possibly want to TrueCrypt the drive to make it look like gibberish to
>> thieves and nosy govt agencies.
>> Windows - I hear it's pretty easy.
>> Linux - don't even want to think about it, but I don't know what's involved.
>>
>> Oh, here are a few more. Some of these I may be able to run under Wine,
>> some not.
>>
>> * Audible books - Linux cannot do it
>> * Sansa Fuze+ MP3 Player - updater and media converter - Linux cannot do it
>> * TomTom GPS - updater - Linux cannot do it
>> * Evernote - online notes system - Linux cannot do it - OLD one works in
>> Wine
>> * MetaTrader 4 - currency trading software - Linux cannot do it - works
>> in Wine
>>
>> You get the idea. Now, I intend to stick with Linux, and I intend to get
>> these problems solved. Since I'm a geeky kind of guy, and I'm tenacious,
>> AND since I have lots of GREAT friends on this forum to run to for help,
>> I can probably get it done. However, the average Joe on the street won't
>> be so able or willing to work through these problems. He'll just use
>> what he knows works, and what he knows he can call several people for
>> help, and what's easy and available - Windows or Mac.
>>
>> So, I hope this hasn't offended anyone. I also hope that Windows and Mac
>> will draw on the strengths that Linux has AND I hope that Linux will
>> draw on the strengths that Windows and Mac have, and that all the
>> systems will improve. Of course, I'd like to see more people using open
>> source software.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On 02/07/2011 10:21 PM, Chris Fowler wrote:
>>      
>>> You will not see much praise come out of my mouth for Windoze but I
>>> truly like that boot CD.  I sold a few PC's I cleaned out and used that
>>>
>>>        
>>      
>
>
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-- 

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Ron Frazier

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