[ale] OT: more info on where all the jobs are (going...)

[ChangingLINKS.com]

I can see your point about companies. I guess where we differ in opinion is 
that I don't believe that companies should have as much responsibility as you 
do. 
I place the lion's share of the responsibility on the individual/employee. 
Perhaps the individual will have to move to teaching their skill. Or perhaps 
the individual needs to partner with other individuals in the same boat to 
create new cashflow (and help the economy). The individual has far more 
flexibility than a corporation and should use this ability to adapt with 
changing times.

Consumers AND Corporations should have the choice to get the best value in 
anything they buy (whether it be labor, service, or product). 

You said:
"Large business drive this economy, primarily because this economy is driven 
by the stock market."

In your model, you seem to be saying the economy is driven by the stock market 
which is driven by big business. What is big business driven by?
I believe that the ecomony is driven primarily by banks and the people's faith 
in the government(US dollar). People and banks loan money (buying stock, VC, 
and corporate loans) to corporations when they have faith in the government 
(and the corporation). 
What happens with the faith is gone? The loans are called in and the stock is 
sold, there is less cash flow which makes it tougher to make a profit. Thus, 
and people get laid off, services get laid off (reduction of offered 
services) and consumers buy less.

I just don't believe that corporations can prop up the economy by paying 
higher prices for their workers, supplies or other overhead.

Drew


On Monday 17 March 2003 08:17, Geoffrey wrote:
> ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
> > Go back through ALL of your posts in this thread. They ALL seem to
> > contain the word "ALL." An similarly, other programmers on the list are
> > thinking this way.
> >
> > ALL of AT&T's customers are not IT.
>
> A company does not need to lose all of it's customers in order to feel
> the effect of the outsourcing of jobs.
>
> > ALL of the IT jobs in the US are not going
> > to be farmed out.  IT does not encompass ALL of the places exIT can
> >
>  > work.
>
> It also does not require ALL the jobs to be farmed out to affect the
> economy in a negative way.  If 30% of the IT jobs are farmed out, then
> you've got a lot of folks out of work.
>
> > ALL
> > businesses are not blind stupid and uncaring about the US ecomony.
> > Businesses do not control ALL of the economy.
>
> Right, you are kidding yourself.  Large business drive this economy,
> primarily because this economy is driven by the stock market.
>
> > If you don't work in IT (specifically),
> > you will not lose ALL of your money - (and thus not be able to afford
> > AT&T's services).
>
> And where would you suggest all these displaced IT workers to work?
> Real estate?  Various jobs require different skills.  I'm not interested
> in being a plumber or an electrician.  I'll do what I need to do to
> maintain my income though.
>
> My main point is that all these large companies that are outsourcing all
> the IT work do owe something to those people who have paid their dues
> here in this country and put these companies where they are now.  The
> companies don't care.  They are screwing employees left and right.
> Check out all the companies that are reducing pensions through claims of
> pension portability.  In my case, my pension from AT&T, which I've
> worked for, for 26 years, could be reduced by as much as 50%.
>
> > I remember one day when I called my exgirlfriend to borrow $5 to feed
> > myself and a completely broke friend. The point? The phone was still on.
> > Maybe I was a month late in payment - but nonetheless, I was able to
> > afford the things that I needed long enough to get back on my feet. I do
> > remember one other thing: ALL of my utilities stayed on during that
> > financial uncertainty.
>
> That's all fine and good, but no one wants or needs to be in such a
> situation.  The bottom line is, if enough of these jobs are farmed out,
> it's going to negatively inpact this country's economy.  No one can
> escape that.  Not even you.
>
> > Drew
> >
> > On Sunday 16 March 2003 17:39, Geoffrey wrote:
> >>ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
> >>>I think that you are missing most of the spectrum.
> >>>
> >>>Even if ALL of the IT jobs were to leave this country, I doubt "no one"
> >>>would be able to afford software. Foriegn cars (in my experience) are
> >>>usually better made - even to this day (ok limit this to Japan and
> >>>Germany, and exclude many VWs and Audis).
> >>>
> >>>I believe history showed that industry can leave places like PA and
> >>>Detroit, and we can still have an economic boom in the future (late
> >>> 90s). America seemed to go from agriculture - to industry - to IT (not
> >>> a history major over here) and I believe that we can go "to infinity
> >>> and beyond."
> >>>
> >>>I don't believe that foreign policy (exporting labor, importing goods
> >>> and HB1 issues) are the leading cause of our economic swings.
> >>
> >>You've noted that in each of the above industries, something else came a
> >>long to replace the previous.  So what is going to employ all the IT
> >>workers?  If I can't find work, then I start spending less money.  There
> >>goes the dsl, long distance phone calls....  I chose those particular
> >>'perks' because the relate more to the company I work for, AT&T.
> >>
> >>So,  AT&T sends work overseas, and ex-employees, now are out of work and
> >>must cut back on certain services.  Who's going to continue purchasing
> >>those services?
> >>
> >>>Drew
> >>>
> >>>On Saturday 15 March 2003 21:12, Mike Panetta wrote:
> >>>>On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 11:55, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> >>>>>On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 14:26, ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
> >>>>>>I value your opinion in this case. However, I don't think that
> >>>>>>corporations are short-sighted, blind or stupid.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Corporations are neither short-sighted, blind or stupid. They are
> >>>>>single-minded. That single-minded purpose is bottom-line profit. That
> >>>>> is the only reason corporations exist. They will do anything to boost
> >>>>> that bottom line. As a rule, corporations have no morals. As morals
> >>>>> have no weight on the balance sheet, there is no reason to have
> >>>>> morals. So they don 't.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>If a corporation sees that they can produce their product for lees
> >>>>> cost that they are right, they will change production methods. There
> >>>>> is no thought to any factor other than the bottom line.
> >>>>
> >>>>Isn't the bottom line kinda pointless if there is no one left employed
> >>>> in a capacity that would allow them to buy the product for the prices
> >>>> its sold for?  I see (or rather hear of) all these companies
> >>>> outsourcing all the IT work, and yet I do not hear of any of them
> >>>> reducing prices.  How can anyone but other corporations afford to buy
> >>>> any of these software products if the price is not reduced?  Even if
> >>>> all IT workers in the US went out and found lower paying jobs tomorrow
> >>>> just to put food on the table, how could they afford to purchase any
> >>>> of the products that are being manufactured by these companies?
> >>>>
> >>>>How can corporations exist without employees?  Someone somewhere has to
> >>>>produce what the company sells.  There also must exist a consumer to
> >>>> buy the product. A consumer cannot consume without the resources to do
> >>>> so, so they must seek employment at a corporation.  If all
> >>>> corporations outsource all their employees, they will have lost their
> >>>> consumers as well...  Or am I missing something?
> >>>>
> >>>>I do not for see this as being anything but a disaster for the economy
> >>>> of the US. It seems that capitalism has failed...
> >>>>
> >>>>Mike
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Ale mailing list
> >>>>Ale at ale.org
> >>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale

-- 
Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
http://www.ChangingLINKS.com
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