[ale] Ernie Ball says F.Y. to Microsoft

Matthew Magee mnmagee at earthlink.net
Thu Aug 21 08:38:11 EDT 2003 

The real cost is the support of the software.  I think the idea of paying for 
good support goes well with the tech mindset.  With open source software, the 
development costs should be less, so more work can be focused on proper 
support.  As we all know, the software package itself is not very usefull 
without some knowledge backing it up. Businessmen like Mr. Ball are willing 
to pay for solutions, but unwilling to pay for "products" without good 
solutions, or that contain hidden costs.

On Thursday 21 August 2003 08:09 am, Matthew Brown wrote:
> I agree.  The issue isn't the cost per se, but a) the freedom to use it
> as long as you want, in whatever way you chose, and b) the ability to
> change it as you need, including the ability to look into the source as
> need be.
>
> Obviuously free is more enticing, but anyone who thinks that through
> will see that's not viable long-term, at least not as a commercial
> enterprise.
>
> It'd be interesting to turn over the job of writing the "base" software
> to various consortiums, and let each business extend and enhance for
> themselves as they see the need (a la Apache, I suppose).
>
> On Thu, 2003-08-21 at 07:59, Jay Finch wrote:
> > My impression from the article was not that he wanted more developers to
> > write GPL/Free Business apps, but that more apps need to be written
> > period.  He stated several times in the article that as a business owner
> > nothing is truly "Free" -- So if a company came out with some business
> > applications that he (or other Linux business adopters) needed, they
> > would *BUY* them.
> >
> > Effort requires compensation, IMHO.  Whether that compensation is money,
> > a pat on the back, or knowledge is up to the individual developer.  But
> > we, as a species, are a selfish breed of animal.  So taking a step back,
> > re-evaluating the application market, then moving forward would be a good
> > idea for the Linux community as a whole.  Businesses don't mind paying
> > money for software (See all the ones running MS stuff), so why not CHARGE
> > for applications?  The OS might be free, but that doesn't mean that the
> > applications need to be.  (There will still be free ones for the
> > individual, but I don't see an issue with business-level applications
> > costing money.)
> >
> > Just my thoughts. :~)
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Jay
> >
> > At 04:05 PM 8/20/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> > >What developers are we talking about here ?  The ones who work 40 hour
> > >jobs and program for fun or those who expect to get paid to write these
> > >apps ?  If you are waiting for "free" software (as in beer) then it is
> > >tough luck, as the Open Source/hacker culture seems to still be sorta
> > > "you want it - you do it (or pay someone) or wait until a SourceForge
> > > project gets going.  If it is the later, then I just don't see any
> > > companies doing OS software hiring, and the rates are about 1/2 of
> > > those for MS developers.  I know this for a fact.  I like to eat and
> > > the only OS stuff I do is for a few folks and myself.  OS development
> > > jobs are dammed near non-existent.
> > >
> > >Also, lets not forget what it takes to develop/test/market/support apps
> > > if a company is to write them.  And if it is GPL'd, then you will only
> > > make $ by support.  Also, what language to do it in ?  and what tools
> > > do we use to write it ?  And how much to support the different
> > > Linux/BSD systems out there ??  Would this be like it was before MS
> > > came to power and everyone ran everything on everything ??  or would it
> > > be "run our app on foo Linux/BSD on this bar hardware setup" ???
> > >
> > >And what about what you are going against ?? You can say what you want
> > >about MS, but nothing comes close to Visual Studio 6 - it can do RAD
> > >developement that can cover about 75% of a businessess software needs in
> > >VB (that ties into the Office stuff), heavy lifting is done by C++, and
> > >the web stuff is handled by InterDev - and it all runs on all your
> > >favorite MS systems.  I have seen about all of the other IDE's out there
> > >(both free and for $$) as well as text editors and Visual Studio still
> > >stands out.  If there was an OS alternative, it would really go a long
> > > way to furthering OS development.  Also, what language to do these apps
> > > in ?  Java GUI (and which java sdk ?) ? web stuff ? the Gnome C++ libs
> > > or KDE/Trolltech libs ???  ooh oooh , let's not forget Tcl/Tk.  Or
> > > maybe C using 10 million lines of code (ok, I kinda like doing this for
> > > some stuff).  This point has also been hashed over too.  And let's not
> > > get into the dependency hell that is the bane of all software (OS as
> > > well as proprietary).
> > >
> > >I don't know the answer, but I think the question has several layers of
> > >issues that perhaps Mr. Ball is not aware of - though I also think that
> > >the answers are  out there.  Perhaps if folks were willing to pony up
> > > the dough for developers to  "tweak" certain apps to fit their
> > > business, then perhaps they could get what they want.  However, unless
> > > paid, I tend to write/contribute to only projects that interest me and
> > > not particularly a business owner.
> > >
> > >And hats off to Mr. Ball.  What a dude.
> > >
> > >Greg
> > >
> > > > --=-ELlA8OiyYJGCpj66gsHv
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 2003-08-20 at 15:47, Irv Mullins wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday 20 August 2003 03:33 pm, hbbs at comcast.net wrote:
> > > > > > http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=3Dfd_lede2_hed
> > > > >
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Interesting. Also note how he accurately points to the greatest
> > >
> > > factor th=
> > >
> > > > at is=20
> > > >
> > > > > preventing Linux from gaining wider acceptance:
> > > > >=20
> > > > > "But the developers need to start writing the real-world
> > > > > applications
> > >
> > > peo=
> > >
> > > > ple=20
> > > >
> > > > > need to run a business...engineering, art and design tools, that
> > > > > kind
> > >
> > > of=20
> > >
> > > > > stuff...They're all trying to build servers that already exist and
> > > > > do
> > >
> > > a w=
> > >
> > > > hole=20
> > > >
> > > > > bunch of stuff that's already out there...I think there's a lot of
> > >
> > > room t=
> > >
> > > > o=20
> > > >
> > > > > not just create an alternative to Microsoft but really take the
> > > > > next
> > >
> > > step=
> > >
> > > >  and=20
> > > >
> > > > > do something new. "
> > > >
> > > > There is some real kick-ass stuff out there right now. SQL-ledger is
> > > > a great bookkeeping package for SMB. Compiere is an incredible CRM
> > > > package that integrates with SQL-ledger. (Too bad Compiere still uses
> > > > Oracle as a back-end. PostgreSQL port is underway, but stalled due to
> > > > some heavy technical issues)
> > > >
> > > > I am forwarding that link to all of my clients who still insist on
> > > > using M$ crap.
> > > > --=20
> > > > James P. Kinney III          \Changing the mobile computing world/
> > > > CEO & Director of Engineering \          one Linux user         /
> > > > Local Net Solutions,LLC        \           at a time.          /
> > > > 770-493-8244                    \.___________________________./
> > > > http://www.localnetsolutions.com
> > > >
> > > > GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
> > >
> > > <jkinney at localnetsoluti=
> > >
> > > > ons.com>
> > > > Fingerprint =3D 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7=20
> > > >
> > > > --=-ELlA8OiyYJGCpj66gsHv
> > > > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc
> > > > Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > --=-ELlA8OiyYJGCpj66gsHv--
> > > >
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