[ale] [OT] Interesting Take on MS Programming Tools

Jeff Rose jojerose at mindspring.com
Wed Nov 27 13:31:51 EST 2002 

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 10:44, Dennany, Jerome {D177~Roswell} wrote:
> You are misreading the EULA.
> 
> 1.  It doesn't tell you that you can't write cross platform code with VS.NET.  
You are free to use Mono or Rotor instead of the BCL (Base Class Libraries).  
It just says that if you want to distribute to non-MS platforms, you can't use their distributable libraries.  (
This is a particularly annoying clause, I'll agree).

It specifically says if you use MFC, ATL libraries or the CRT, which I
believe is the engine, you may not port to any other platform.  That is
like Sun saying if you use Swing, AWT or their VM you can only write for
Solaris.  Why use VS.Net and not use the libraries or CRT Microsoft
provides?  You might as well write the program in notepad. 
 

> 2.  It doesn't tell you that you can't write an application that directly competes with Access.  
It does say that you can't use their desktop database engine to do so.  Considering that this is a key part of Access itself,
I actually think that this is reasonable.  They are basically saying that if you want to write an Access (database) 
competitor, develop your own darn database engine.


> 3.  It doesn't say that you can't write GPL software.  It DOES say that you can't 'link' Microsoft libraries and GPL
software.  This is actually a GPL restriction - It's the GPL that restricts itself from linking with non-GPL libraries.  
Notice that there is no restriction against BSD style licences.

It does say that if you use their libraries or CRT, you must have a
license that is at least as strong as Microsoft's.  It's the same
approach as the GPL, just on the opposite side of freedom.  Basically
they say you can use our libraries but you must protec


> 
> Jerry
> ---------------------------------
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rose [mailto:jojerose at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:53 AM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: RE: [ale] [OT] Interesting Take on MS Programming Tools
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 10:13, Dennany, Jerome {D177~Roswell} wrote:
> > Besides the company that manufactures VS.NET, could you tell me what you actually dislike about the tool itself?
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> 
> Well the Eula specifically states that if you use key components of
> .Net, specifically libraries and the CRT I believe, you may not port
> your program to any non-Windows platform.  Noone is going to program in
> VS.Net and not use one of the components.  Thus using VS.Net will lock
> your application into the Windows world.  I think you would be insane to
> develop a program in VS.Net unless you knew in advance that you would
> never want to port it.  
> 
> directly from the EULA on disc 1 of VS.Net
> "	3.1 Redistributable Code-Standard.
> 
> 	(a) If you are authorized and choose to redistribute Sample Code,
> Redistributable Code, VC Redistributables, or Limited Use
> Redistributable Code (collectively, the "Redistributables") as described
> in Section 2, you agree: (i) except as otherwise noted in
> Section 2.1 (Sample Code), to distribute the Redistributables only in
> object code form and in conjunction with and as a part of a software
> application product developed by you that adds significant and primary
> functionality to the Redistributables ("Licensed Product"); (ii) that
> the Redistributables only operate in conjunction with Microsoft Windows
> platforms; (iii) not to use Microsoft's name, logo, or trademarks to
> market the Licensed Product; (iv) to display your own valid copyright
> notice which shall be sufficient to protect Microsoft's copyright in the
> Product; (v) not to remove or obscure any copyright, trademark, or
> patent notices that appear on the Product as delivered to you; (vi) to
> indemnify, hold harmless, and defend Microsoft from and against any
> claims or lawsuits, including attorney's fees, that arise or result from
> the use or distribution of the Licensed Product; (vii) otherwise comply
> with the terms of this EULA; and (viii) agree that Microsoft reserves
> all rights not expressly granted. "
> 
> 
> 	If I remember correctly it prohibits you from using VS.Net to make an
> application that directly competes with Access!  What's next Word?
> Excel? SQL Server?  Windows Media Player?
> 
> again from the EULA
> 	"(a) "Jet" Files or MSDE. If you redistribute the "Jet Files" (as
> identified in the Product ) or MSDE (individually or collectively, the
> "MS DB Files"), you agree to comply with the following additional
> requirements: (i) your Licensed Product shall not  substantially
> duplicate the capabilities of Microsoft Access or, in the reasonable
> opinion of Microsoft, compete with same; and (ii) unless your Licensed
> Product requires your customers to license Microsoft Access in order to
> operate, you shall not reproduce or use any of the MS DB Files for
> commercial distribution in conjunction with a general-purpose word
> processing, spreadsheet, or database management software product, or an
> integrated work or product suite whose components include a
> general-purpose word processing, spreadsheet, or database management
> software product except for the exclusive use of importing data to the
> various formats supported by Microsoft Access. Note: A product that
> includes limited word processing, spreadsheet, or database components
> along with other components which provide significant and primary value,
> such as an accounting product with limited spreadsheet capability, is
> not considered to be a "general-purpose" product."
> 
> sounds like they are protecting Office to me.
> 
> 	And of course you may not use GPL, oh excuse me 'Identified Software'.
> 
> 	"(b) If you use the Redistributables, or the "Sample Code" or
> "Redistributable Code" portions of the SDK Software (as described in
> Section 4.2(b) (all of the foregoing referred to in this paragraph as
> the "Licensed Software"), then in addition to your compliance with the
> applicable distribution requirements described for the Licensed
> Software, the following also applies. Your license rights to the
> Licensed Software are conditioned upon your (i) not incorporating
> Identified Software into or combining Identified Software with the
> Licensed Software or a derivative work thereof; (ii) not distributing
> Identified Software in conjunction with the Licensed Software or a
> derivative work thereof; and (iii) not using Identified Software in the
> development of a derivative work of the Licensed Software. 
> "Identified Software" means software which is licensed pursuant to terms
> that directly or indirectly (A) create, or purport to create,
> obligations for Microsoft with respect to the Licensed Software or
> derivative work thereof or (B) grant, or purport to grant, to any third
> party any rights or immunities under Microsoft's intellectual property
> or proprietary rights in the Licensed Software or derivative work
> thereof. Identified Software includes, without limitation, any software
> that requires as a condition of use, modification, and/or distribution
> of such software that other software incorporated into, derived from,
> or
> distributed with such software be (1) disclosed or distributed in source
> code form; (2) be licensed for the purpose of making derivative works;
> or (3) be redistributable at no charge."
> 
> 	So you are limited as to what you can develop, what platforms you can
> use and the license you use.  So long as competition, Linux and the GPL
> aren't important to you, I'd say VS.Net is the perfect choice.
> 
> Attached is the entire EULA 
> -- 
> Jeff Rose
> 
> jojerose at mindspring.com
> 
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-- 
Jeff Rose

jojerose at mindspring.com



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