[ale] [OT] Re: [ale] Bangalore Bill

[F. Grant Robertson]

Yes, you have defined yourself as a communist, and that is a precise
definition if this is actually what you believe.  However, I don't think
that this is actually what you _really_ believe, it is only what you
understand to be correct with your current level of understanding.  If
you were an aboriginal tribesman, my laptop would appear to be magical.
Does that actually make my laptop magical? No. It only displays your
lack of understanding of the underlying concepts that make my laptop
possible (Physics, electricity, mathmatics, etc..)

If I can borrow your analagy to star trek for a second, then let me use
it to explain the other side of the coin to you.  Bear with me, and read
this with an open mind. Your obviously intelligent or you wouldn't be
here, and your obviously a thinking man or you wouldn't be involved in
this discussion..  Therefore I know this isn't beyond your grasp.



Capitalism drives innovation, hence why _we_ won the space race, the
arms race and the race for quality of life for the masses. You may argue
that we will never reach the level of society that is expressed as a
fantasy in Star Trek but, if you are to actually investigate the reality
of economics and innovation, and compare that to the well being and
comfort of the society as a whole, you will find that these are near
infalable truths. (as near infalable as truth can be_

A) There has been no other system able to attain the level of wealth in
the hands of the many as well as capitalism. Read all the history of
civilization you want, you will never find an example of a civilization
that has taxed itself into widespread prosperity.  The quality of life
for even the lowest income earner (note, income earner indicates one who
contributes to society by labor, thought(innovation) or investment) in a
capitalist society is far beyond reach of the average citizen of a
communist state.  You can never achieve the equalibrium that allows for
the greater good of all with a system that rewards each member equally
regardless of contribution.

b) You will never be able to reach the level of technology displayed in
the fantasy of star trek (if indeed it is at all possible, and current
physics do not bear out it's feasibility) without the power of economic
incentive for innovation.

c) Increasing capital gains affects every member of society by limiting
the liquidity of capital.  

Man, seriously, take an economics course.. Even the socialists at the
London School of Economics (famously one of the most liberal and
non-capitalist institutions on earth) understand that what your dreaming
of is entirely impossible in practice.

-G
  

On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 10:55, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> Call me a screaming, left-wing, liberal, socialist, pinko-commie if you
> like, but profits are what is let over after the needs have been met. As
> there are many people who do not have their needs met, the profiteers as
> the lowest form of scum on the planet in my mind.  People that invest in
> corporations have managed to accumulate more than they need. Bill Gates
> plopped $100M into the foundation his wife made him start. Big deal. The
> little old lady who puts $10 into the pot at the charity at Christmas is
> a bigger donor to me.
> 
> I have no problems with having no corporate taxes at all. Just as long
> as the capital gains tax is set at about 50%. Things needs to be done at
> a government level and until we can get out of the quagmire of fiduciary
> concerns, we have little chance of getting to the social level of Star
> Trek. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 10:21, F. Grant Robertson wrote:
> > Make no mistake, corporate taxes or not.. corporations _do not_ pay
> > taxes. "How is that!?!?" you say. Allow me to explain.
> > 
> > 
> > Any tax paid by a for profit corporation is only a redistribution of tax
> > from you the consumer to they, the corporation. Corporations, being in
> > the business of making a profit, will set price points that make profit
> > possible. The existence of corporate taxes only passes along a surcharge
> > to the consumer, whoever they may be.  And, if you want to make the
> > argument that some corporations are b2b only, and therefore escape this
> > equation, feel free.. however, remember that at some point every single
> > thing purchased by any corporation eventually makes it to the open
> > market. Whether that be in the form of a product (a combination of items
> > purchased from several suppliers(corporations)  or a service (a
> > combination of labor + supplies, purchased from some other corporation)
> > it is eventually served to some end user, i.e. the consumer. The
> > consumer (wage earner) will _always_ feel the effects of any tax placed
> > either directly on them, or on any company they do business with.  The
> > only avenue to avoid this would be to live in isolation, growing your
> > own food without the benefit of purchased supplies (fertilizer, seed,
> > equipment, etc..) and that, is so terribly unlikely as to be considered
> > impossible.  
> > 
> > I really think some of you need a lesson in basic economics..
> > Unfortunately your not going to get that in a government school. Why
> > not? Because it is in the best interest of the federal government to
> > keep you as uninformed on matters that allow _you_ the individual to
> > think for yourself. I bet your going to tell me next that we live in a
> > democracy..  
> > 
> > As long as the masses believe in fairly tales like corporate taxes, or
> > democracy, we will continue to slip further and further into debt, and
> > closer and closer to the evils of socialism.
> > 
> > -G
> > 
> > "It's great to learn, 'cause knowledge is power" - School House Rocks.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 08:48, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> > > The only thing you left out was to close the tax loopholes that allow
> > > corporation to earn billions and pay no taxes. GE, Enron, and several
> > > others have managed to avoid paying taxes on the billions they earned in
> > > profits while our schools were cramming 35 kids into a trailer called a
> > > classroom in front of a single teacher who is supposed to train these
> > > kids to become good employees of these companies.
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 00:39, Joseph A Knapka wrote:
> > > > F. Grant Robertson wrote:
> > > > > I have zero respect for a Commander in Chief who openly protested the US
> > > > > military on foreign soil.
> > > > 
> > > > I have a lot of respect for a president who'd advocate such an
> > > > unpopular, but just and moral, position. IMO the US has no legitimate
> > > > overseas "interests" that justify deploying American military
> > > > personnel. Our "interest" in the Mideast is just govspeak for
> > > > "oil", and we can do without it, and do our children and their
> > > > children an enormous favor to boot by weaning this nation from
> > > > its filthy fossil-fuel habit. (I ride my bike a lot.)
> > > > 
> > > > If I were running for president, which I'm sure I'll never do,
> > > > I'd run on the following platform:
> > > > 
> > > > - Get the US independent of foreign oil.
> > > > - Maintain the most effective military apparatus on the
> > > > planet, but use it solely in a defensive capacity.
> > > > - Money saved by withdrawal of foreign military
> > > > operations to be used in part to finance worldwide,
> > > > ideologically-neutral humanitarian aid operations.
> > > > - Remain engaged diplomatically worldwide.
> > > > - Subsidize alternative energy research, including
> > > > space-based power systems, until it becomes practical for
> > > > private concerns to make money that way. As a side effect,
> > > > reinvigorate the US space program as a practical solution
> > > > to a number of Earthbound problems.
> > > > - Legalize all currently illegal drugs, and tax the f*ck
> > > > out of the suppliers. Use the money to improve education
> > > > nationally.
> > > > - Equal education opportunity for *all* based *solely* on
> > > > merit. Education through graduate school should be free
> > > > for anyone who can climb the learning curve.
> > > > - All government IT systems to be run on fully-auditable
> > > > systems based on fully open standards. That may mean
> > > > proprietary, non-free software in some cases, but it will
> > > > never mean closed source.
> > > > - If money saved by the previous point permits, establish
> > > > permanent colonies on the Moon and Mars :-)
> > > > 
> > > > </starry-eyed>
> > > > 
> > > > Yeah, laugh all you want...
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > -- Joe
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> > > > This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> > > > See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be 
> > > > sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
> > > -- 
> > > James P. Kinney III   \Changing the mobile computing world/
> > > President and CEO      \          one Linux user         /
> > > Local Net Solutions,LLC \           at a time.          /
> > > 770-493-8244             \.___________________________./
> > > 
> > > GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
> > > <jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
> > > Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> > See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be 
> > sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
> -- 
> James P. Kinney III   \Changing the mobile computing world/
> President and CEO      \          one Linux user         /
> Local Net Solutions,LLC \           at a time.          /
> 770-493-8244             \.___________________________./
> 
> GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
> <jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
> Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7 
> 
> 



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