[ale] Anyone here use Zope?

Sat Mar 16 01:06:11 EST 2002

The biggest struggle I'm having with the PHP folks is their one track mind.
They do everything in PHP (and I mean everything including file converters
which I would've thought they'd prefer to do in perl). This probably isn't a
limitation of PHP per se. But when faced with such zealotry I try to push
alternatives. Free your mind and the rest will follow :)

Another issue is that our graphics guy is comfortable with PHP so he has no
problems. We did try to bring in another designer who wigged out when he saw
the implementation (mixing code with presentation). Once again, this was a
limitation of the designer (if he couldn't do it in dreamweaver then he
wasn't interested) not of the technology itself.

I haven't seen a templating engine for PHP but a templating engine is
exactly what we need. The PHP folks won't adapt so I have to go it alone
with the tools I'm most comfortable with...

I will state that I have seen some very elegant PHP implementations for
small to medium sized sites. All the guys I know (and trust their abilities)
seem to concur with me that for a really large complicated site Java is the
way to go. If you start with Java on the small stuff, scaling is a little
less hairy.

Add these up and the choice to me is clear.

once again, my 2 cents :)
-Arafat

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jb [mailto:jbwellsiv at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:35 PM
> To: Arafat Mohamed
> Cc: roncordell at attbi.com; ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] Anyone here use Zope?
>
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> What are the limitations that are becoming apparent?  I'd be interested
> in hearing what problems you're running into (particularly with PHP).
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Arafat Mohamed wrote:
> > Here's my 2 cents...
> >
> > The nice thing about a java based implementation is the number of tools
> > available (Open and commercial). Based on what you're needs are
> you can go
> > all the way with J2EE implementation ala
> JBoss/WebLogic/9iAS/websphere/etc
> > or scale it down to running tomcat standalone. All the major
> IDEs/editors
> > i've seen (eg. macromedia, vi, emacs) have nice support for JSP. You can
> > implement more heavily on the coding aspect (servlets) or dummy
> it down with
> > JSP. You're business logic can be implemented with EJBs or just plain
> > vanilla JBs.
> >
> > When faced with a web project I tend to gravitate to the Java
> world due to
> > the flexibility of tools and methodologies. At work, we have projects
> > written in ColdFusion, PHP and ASP. The limitations of all are
> starting to
> > become apparent and so there is a push to convert all of this
> onto Oracle
> > 9iAS for the more complicated stuff, and an apache web server
> with tomcat
> > for the simpler stuff. (as an aside, the friendly neighborhood
> *nix guy and
> > I have been pushing really hard to convert all servers to *nix/*BSD)
> >
> > Also take a look at the Apache Jakarta projects. If you're looking for a
> > templating engine I heartily recommend velocity. Very nice seperation of
> > logic from presentation.
> >
> > -Arafat
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: John Wells [mailto:jbwellsiv at yahoo.com]
> >>Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:05 PM
> >>To: roncordell at attbi.com
> >>Cc: Ale
> >>Subject: Re: [ale] Anyone here use Zope?
> >>
> >>
> >>This is what I'm looking for:
> >>
> >>Ability to interface with RDBMS.
> >>Speed. speed. speed.
> >>It'd be nice to separate bus logic from presentation
> >>logic, but not absolutely necessary.
> >>Capable of being distributed across multiple servers.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>John
> >>
> >>--- Ron Cordell <roncordell at attbi.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thursday 14 March 2002 12:38 pm, John Wells
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Michael,
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks for the detailed input on this matter.
> >>>>
> >>>I've
> >>>
> >>>>been following along because I've heard so many
> >>>>
> >>>good
> >>>
> >>>>things about Zope recently...
> >>>>
> >>>>If Zope isn't quite there yet for large scale web
> >>>>apps, what is?  I'm getting ready to begin work on
> >>>>
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>>>project that I would consider large scale, and I'm
> >>>>charged with identifying the tools we'll use.
> >>>>
> >>>I've
> >>>
> >>>>been examining both PHP and JBoss/Tomcat
> >>>>
> >>>solutions.
> >>>
> >>>>What else is out there?  What would you recommend?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Sorry to just jump in here... but here I go anyway
> >>>;-)
> >>>
> >>>It's an interesting question, and depends a great
> >>>deal on what you mean by
> >>>large scale web apps. That is to say, what kinds of
> >>>databases will your
> >>>project require? What other datasources will you
> >>>need to access? Will data
> >>>access require transaction support, or distributed
> >>>transaction support? Do
> >>>you need personalization, user tracking, metrics,
> >>>reporting... the list goes
> >>>on. Other aspects to consider are content
> >>>management; how much of the content
> >>>on the site is dynamic versus static, how will it be
> >>>maintained, what does
> >>>the development/qa/staging/producton cycle need to
> >>>look like, etc. Not to be
> >>>ignored, who is doing the development, what are
> >>>their skills and experience?
> >>>I would find it very difficult to answer your not so
> >>>simple question unless I
> >>>knew more about those items, and more :-)
> >>>
> >>>-ronc
> >>>
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> >>>
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