[ale] Re: [ale-unemployed] Re: [ale] Re: [ale-unemployed] A name?

[James P. Kinney III]

John et al.
(lengthy reply warning :)

I read the sections you attached. I also have been studying the code
from the board website. What they are specifically laying down is the
framework required to be qualified to take the P.E. license exams. A
person wanting the designation must be compliant of all of the rules as
set forth in the documentation. And they must pass the exams. And they
must abide by the rules. And they must keep their professional training
current.

As I read them (4 times now <yawn>), the rules are inclusionary in form.
They set the standards for being included in the P.E. grouping. They do
not form an exclusionary system that prevents the use of the term
"engineer". They only prevent the use of the term "Professional
Engineer" as that has legal license standing like M.D.

Participation in an association of a related engineering field by a P.E.
will have no bearing on the status of the PE. Case in point, IEEE. It is
an internationally recognized association of engineers. It has no
affiliation with any PE status. It has many PE as members and board
members and officers. It has countless members who are not PEs. 

If a PE tried to group association members under his PE license, THAT
would be a problem. Unless the PE was following the rules of the PE
license and acting as the supervisory PE on all matters that were
stamped as approved by him. That is what a PE can do.

We don't claim to be Professional Engineers. We do claim to be
Consulting Engineers. That has no legal status. (that I have found yet)

As an association of "engineers and consultants", we are not claiming to
be involved in any way as doing the work of the members. The association
is merely a common meeting point to serve the needs of its members as
designated by the (unfinished) Mission Statement and carried out by an
elected Board of Directors.

Since employers can toss around "... Engineer" as liberally as they
choose, they have already researched the legalese and have found no
conflict.  Again I would refer the reader to the numerous professional
societies that are engineering related. IEEE is the one that comes to
mind first. http://www.ieee.org/about/  Another is the Association of
Consulting Chemists and Chemical Engineers. http://www.chemconsult.org/ 
Both of these well known associations refer to themselves as
professional associations of engineers. They do not refer to themselves
as associations of professional engineers. That would be a different
thing entirely.

My apologies for the length of this diatribe. I have no intention of
dismissing anyones view on this topic. Least of all a P.E. who is
interested in being involved in any manner with this fledgling
organization. I firmly believe that removing the "Professional" term
from the name is more than adequate from a licensing legality
standpoint. It is also a good idea in that it gives the signal that
students are welcome. 

It is my hope that in the long run, as a group we can help foster the
adoption of the "best practices" methods that P.E.s use. It will benefit
our membership to learn how to do a better job than the MSCEs!

On Tue, 2002-02-12 at 10:55, John Mills wrote:
> 'Unemployed' readers -
> 
> I'm glad to see this come up, because serious legal issues are involved.
> 
> Employers designate job titles as "... Engineer" pretty freely, but there
> are strict requirements on an individual or company which claims to offer
> "engineering" or "engineering services" to the public. I attach a couple
> of excerpts from Georgia Code related to P.E. licensing.
> 
> There are both governmental agencies (Secretary of State of Georiga) and
> professional associations (Georgia Society of Professional Engineers)
> involved; they have both "turf" and public safety concerns to protect,
> numerous cases of genuine abuse to point to, and the law on their side.
> 

> 43-1-24 G
> *** CODE SECTION ***  12/03/01
>     
>   43-1-24.
>     
>   Any person licensed by a professional licensing board and who
>   practices a "profession," as defined in Chapter 7 of Title 14, the
>   "Georgia Professional Corporation Act," or who renders "professional
>   services," as defined in Chapter 10 of Title 14, "The Georgia
>   Professional Association Act," whether such person is practicing or
>   rendering services as a proprietorship, partnership, professional
>   corporation, professional association, other corporation, limited
>   liability company, or any other business entity, shall remain
>   subject to regulation by that professional licensing board, and such
>   practice or rendering of services in that business entity shall not
>   change the law or existing standards applicable to the relationship
>   between that person rendering a professional service and the person
>   receiving such service, including but not limited to the rules of
>   privileged communication and the contract, tort, and other legal
>   liabilities and professional relationships between such persons.
> 
> 43-15-2 G
> *** CODE SECTION ***  12/03/01
>     
>   43-15-2.
>     
>   As used in this chapter, the term:
> 
>     [... other definitions elided ...]
> 
>     (10) "Professional engineer" means an individual who is qualified,
>     by reason of knowledge of mathematics, the physical sciences, and
>     the principles by which mechanical properties of matter are made
>     useful to man in structures and machines, acquired by professional
>     education and practical experience, to engage in the practice of
>     professional engineering and who possesses a current certificate
>     of registration as a professional engineer issued by the board.
>     
>     (11) "Professional engineering" means the practice of the art and
>     sciences, known as engineering, by which mechanical properties of
>     matter are made useful to man in structures and machines and shall
>     include any professional service, such as consultation,
>     investigation, evaluation, planning, designing, or responsible
>     supervision of construction or operation, in connection with any
>     public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines,
>     equipment, processes, works, or projects, wherein the public
>     welfare or the safeguarding of life, health, or property is
>     concerned or involved, when such professional service requires the
>     application of engineering principles and data and training in the
>     application of mathematical and physical sciences. A person shall
>     be construed to practice or offer to practice professional
>     engineering, within the meaning of this chapter who by verbal
>     claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way
>     represents or holds himself out as a professional engineer or
>     engineer or as able or qualified to perform engineering services
>     or who does perform any of the services set out in this paragraph.
>     Nothing contained in this chapter shall include the work
>     ordinarily performed by persons who operate or maintain machinery
>     or equipment.
-- 
James P. Kinney III   \Changing the mobile computing world/
President and COO      \          one Linux user         /
Local Net Solutions,LLC \           at a time.          /
770-493-8244             \.___________________________./

GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
<jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7 



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