[ale] OT: H1B

Mon Dec 16 16:31:38 EST 2002

the H-1B regulations meant to keep Citizen first, foreigner second. 
However, it couldn't provide a clause practical enough to swap in citizens 
as soon as qualified citizens become available. The reason is, that
the service provided by IT workers are not, fortunately or 
unfortunately, 100% commodities yet. H-1B IT workers, along with their US 
counterparts, actually accumulate knowledge of the particular 
business/company  (infrastructure, industry background, in-house API, 
corporate culture, etc.), thru training and experience. So, it's not 
feasible/reasonable/practical to ask the corporate America to swap 
in citizen worker to replace H-1B worker, on short notice of economic 
downturn.

Y'all know how much efforts/time you need to bring someone new up to 
speed, not to mention that the incubent worker bee is tried and good, 
while you have to take chances with the newcomers. If I were the 
hiring manager, it'd be a strong de-motivator to me. 

<disclaimer>
I am an H-1B worker.
</disclaimer>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Geoffrey wrote:

#Zyman, Andy wrote:
#> Geoffrey,
#> This is different issue you are talking about. And here i agree with you.
#> But just saying that  visa holders has certain _advantages_ over the
#> citizens, excuse my French, is a pure BS.
#
#I don't know if they do or not.  Bottom line for me is, I see too many 
#VERY GOOD technical U.S. Citizens out of work, and therefore think that 
#H1Bs should be stopped for until this problem is resolved.
#
#> 
#> I'm not following the "medical visas" question. But i found it interesting
#> how hospitals ( let say hospitals ) reacted on the proposal to allow more
#> foreign nurses to enter and work in the country.
#
#Again, if there are citizens who are capable of performing the function, 
#they should get the first shot.
#
#> AZ
#> 
#> 
#>>-----Original Message-----
#>>From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
#>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:19 PM
#>>To: ale at ale.org
#>>Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
#>>
#>>
#>>Special treatment or not, there should be a better system to 
#>>for these 
#>>issues.  People from other countries should not be permitted to enter 
#>>this country and take a job with so many folks out of work.
#>>
#>>And, FYI, I am employed and actually hoping for an early retirement 
#>>package offer.
#>>
#>>
#>>Zyman, Andy wrote:
#>>
#>>>Stephen,
#>>>
#>>>
#>>>>However, I do agree that holders of H1B visas should not 
#>>
#>>receive special
#>>
#>>>>treatment that not even American citizens receive.
#>>>
#>>>May i ask you what is the "special treatment" is ? Paying 
#>>
#>>social insurance,
#>>
#>>>unemployment, medical etc. taxes and have 12 ( correct me 
#>>
#>>please in number )
#>>
#>>>days to leave country in case he lost his job? Unable to 
#>>
#>>provide services to
#>>
#>>>any other company just because you allowed to work only for 
#>>
#>>the company who
#>>
#>>>holds your visa?
#>>>
#>>>Could you please put a list of the "special treatment" 
#>>
#>>package from which
#>>
#>>>holder of H1b visa gain over the citizen/perm. resident? 
#>>>
#>>>
#>>>
#>>>>-----Original Message-----
#>>>>From: stephen at touset.dyndns.org [mailto:stephen at touset.dyndns.org]
#>>>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:31 AM
#>>>>To: ale at ale.org
#>>>>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>I have no problem with our Customs officials handing out 
#>>>>visas. We're not
#>>>>going to stop any terrorist attacks by keeping others out of the
#>>>>country--just like with gun control, they'll find a way 
#>>>>around it. We have
#>>>>thousands of miles of unproteced borders that anyone could 
#>>>>cross, and we
#>>>>have no way of preventing it.
#>>>>However, I do agree that holders of H1B visas should not 
#>>>>receive special
#>>>>treatment that not even American citizens receive. I don't 
#>>>>pay taxes so
#>>>>that someone can have an easier time because of my work. I 
#>>>>pay taxes so
#>>>>that politicians can have $150,000/yr salaries and gigantic 
#>>>>bureaucracies
#>>>>can lose it, and damnit, I want to keep it that way. We have 
#>>>>far too many
#>>>>people immigrating into this country to receive benefits like 
#>>>>welfare and
#>>>>social security, contributing nothing in the process. The 
#>>
#>>real problem
#>>
#>>>>here is not with the immigration itself, but with the 
#>>>>existence of such
#>>>>opportunities. If we were to eliminate welfare, social 
#>>>>security, etc., all
#>>>>across the board, more immigrants to the United States would 
#>>>>be here to
#>>>>work and produce, instead of consume. Hell, our own citizens 
#>>>>would, too.
#>>>>Stephen Touset
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>I agree 100%!!  Getting tired of Hotel Patel myself.  Want 
#>>>>
#>>>>an english
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>speaking and understanding person to talk with after being 
#>>>>
#>>>>on the road
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>for a long time especially if it is late.
#>>>>>
#>>>>>gj
#>>>>>
#>>>>>-----Original Message-----
#>>>>>From: ale-admin at ale.org [mailto:ale-admin at ale.org]On Behalf 
#>>>>
#>>>>Of Cougar
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:13 PM
#>>>>>To: ale at ale.org
#>>>>>Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>... and should they start a business, they get extremely 
#>>>>
#>>>>low tax rates
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>(unavailable to US CITIZENS) for TWO years, after which they are
#>>>>>allowed to SELL their business to relatives back home and the whole
#>>>>>process renews! Don't believe it? Just check out the 
#>>>>
#>>>>ownership of 99%
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>of the motels along our
#>>>>>interstate system.  It's time we start voting AGAINST 
#>>>>
#>>>>legislators who
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>support
#>>>>>this garbage! (or start taxing the aliens until THEY bleed 
#>>>>
#>>>>instead of
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>us.)
#>>>>>
#>>>>>Cougar
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>On Sunday 15 December 2002 20:59, Robert Heaven wrote:
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>>And, would you believe, the US government is giving these 
#>>>>
#>>>>immigrants
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>low interest loans using OUR tax money to help them get 
#>>>>
#>>>>set up in this
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>country.
#>>>>>>
#>>>>>>On Sun, 2002-12-15 at 14:19, George Johnson wrote:
#>>>>>>
#>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>That is a FACT!!
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>george johnson
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
#>>>>>>>From: ale-admin at ale.org [mailto:ale-admin at ale.org]On Behalf Of
#>>>>>>>Cougar Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:39 PM
#>>>>>>>To: ale at ale.org
#>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>We've *got* to stop handing out visas like they were 
#>>>>
#>>>>'free coupons'.
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>>Period.
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>Cougar
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>On Friday 13 December 2002 16:14, Jordi S. Bunster wrote:
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 16:00, Cougar wrote:
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>>And you can bet your last nickle that should a 
#>>>>
#>>>>terrorist cyber
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>attack
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>>happen, it will come from one of those H1-B visa 
#>>>>
#>>>>holders! It's
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>>>>time for this garbage to come to a screeching halt.
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>Like one would need to be inside the US to do that 
#>>>>
#>>>>kind of thing?
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>>>Or with a real passport, for that matter?
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>I think you underestimate what those suckers have done, and how
#>>>>>
#>>>>>airport
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>security/imigration failed at doing their job right.
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>The US government has everything it needs to send back every
#>>>>>>>>single immigrant in the country. It could even be done without
#>>>>>>>>having
#>>>>>
#>>>>>problems
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>with the UN or similar groups. Do you have any ideas about why
#>>>>>>>>they don't do it? D'you really think that would end 
#>>>>
#>>>>your problems
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>>>with "terrorism" once and for all?
#>>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>Geez. My mother is a holder of an H1B. All the poor 
#>>>>
#>>>>creature does
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>>>>is consulting for an american company that sells 
#>>>>
#>>>>clothes in south
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>>america.
#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>>>>Go figure.
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>>>>Ale at ale.org
#>>>>>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#>>>>>>>
#>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>>>>Ale at ale.org
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#>>>>>>
#>>>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>>>Ale at ale.org
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#>>>>>
#>>>>>
#>>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>>Ale at ale.org
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#>>>>>
#>>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>>Ale at ale.org
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#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>
#>>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>>Ale at ale.org
#>>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#>>>>
#>>>
#>>>_______________________________________________
#>>>Ale mailing list
#>>>Ale at ale.org
#>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#>>>
#>>>
#>>
#>>-- 
#>>Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
#>>
#>>The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
#>>Think about it...
#>>
#>>_______________________________________________
#>>Ale mailing list
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#>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#>>
#> 
#> _______________________________________________
#> Ale mailing list
#> Ale at ale.org
#> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#> 
#> 
#
#-- 
#Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
#
#The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
#Think about it...
#
#_______________________________________________
#Ale mailing list
#Ale at ale.org
#http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
#

Jerry Z. Yu				+1-404-487-8544 (O)
systems engineer			z.yu at voicecom.com
is support, voicecom, llc		www.voicecom.com

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