[ale] MS Propaganda representative

Thu Apr 18 12:27:28 EDT 2002

That is particularly amusing being that interchange (formerly
minivend...) does such a good job with shopping carts. Back end postgres
support and hooks to many credit card processors makes M$ attempts at a
secure ecommerce system a joke.

There are some others out there buy anyone looking for a good open
source cart (with debs!) can hardly go wrong there.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: James P. Kinney III [mailto:jkinney at localnetsolutions.com] 
To: ale at ale.org
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:26 AM
To: mgm at atsga.com
Cc: Jeff Rose; Atlanta Linux User Group (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [ale] MS Propaganda representative

Hmm. I had seen an article talking about Interland getting a huge new
"partner" but I didn't think it was Microsoft. Can someone point me to a
reference that talks about Interland's business dealings?

I have a client who is hosted by Interland. They spent $$$$ on a
shopping cart e-commerce site which now doesn't work properly on IE and
not at all on Netscape or anything else. Interland refuses to support
the project (Interland wrote it). If Microsoft was the big investor,
that would explain some things.

On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 07:18, Mike Millson wrote:
> And they have been bribing companies to adopt their technology. The
have
> been infusing money into companies like Interland, which previously
> supported Java servlets, and now miraculously after receiving a load
of
> money from M$, does not support Java servlets. That's one of the 1st
things
> Interland pulled the plug on after M$ gave them funding last Fall. And
they
> are investing money in development companies such as Extreme Logic
making
> sure that people get hooked on .Net and projects get built using it.
Good
> ideas shouldn't have to be forced on people. If you build a better
mouse
> trap, the world will beat a path to your door.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rose [mailto:jojerose at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:36 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: RE: [ale] MS Propaganda representative
> 
> 
> I agree. What I liked about .Net is the ability to easily and quickly
> make changes across an intranet.  But what I have a problem with is
MS's
> insistance that their products be used across the internet. Microsoft
> wants you to use Office across the internet.  That is where MS expects
> to make their money.  They didn't create this new development
> environment so business could better maintain their intranet.  They
> created it so they can force people into subscription services for MS
> products.  They are relying on developers to use VisualStudio.Net and
> when the platform is well enough ingrained, they'll start pushing the
> subscription thing.  And don't believe the portability claims.  If you
> read the EULA you may only use VisualStudio.Net to write for Windows.
> Willfully using VS.Net means you agree not to port to other platforms.
> And no open source.  If you use VS.Net you are directly/indirectly
> extending MS's monopoly.
> 
> On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 15:52, Dennany, Jerome {D177~Roswell} wrote:
> > Well, I'm a developer that currently works with .NET, and perhaps I
> can
> > clear up a few points.  .NET people speak alot about the Internet,
and
> > providing software services over the internet.  It isn't
specifically
> about
> > running things over an open internet connection, but more a
> 'distributed
> > application' approach, which is pretty important in a large
> geographically
> > distributed corporation.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > You will have to use MS Office, Windows etc. over the internet.
> Businesses
> > will never go for that.
> > </SNIP>
> >
> > While business may not be excited about using applications over the
> > Internet, they are typically _VERY_ excited about centrally
maintained
> > applications, ease of deployment, etc.  So, while they may not be
> excited
> > about MS Office over the Internet, the idea of the typical user
> running a
> > session or certain types of software in a virtual environment is a
> system
> > admin's dream.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > >From what I gather, MS believes most everything will be done over
the
> > internet and
> > because of that you will have to allow websites to execute code on
> your
> > machine.
> > </SNIP>
> >
> > .NET has a fine-grained security model, allowing system
administrators
> (and
> > programmers) detailed control over what can run (or should run - I'm
a
> > pragmatist, not a Microsoft apologist.  I understand that MS has a
> > well-deserved bad reputation for security problems at both the OS
and
> > applications levels).  However, don't think that just because it
_can_
> be
> > done, you can't turn it off.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > DLL's can be updated dynamically and programs changed almost
> dynamically.
> > </SNIP>
> >
> > This already happens with products like Symantec's live update.
From
> an
> > administrator's standpoint, this can be a _good_ thing.  The fewer
> desktops
> > you have to visit to perform an applications upgrade, the more you
can
> > concentrate on your _real_ job (Automating your maintenance scripts
so
> you
> > can play more UT).
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > Basically other people will have the ability to upgrade your machine
> at
> > will!
> > </SNIP>
> > I think this is it in a nutshell - you are looking at it from the
> > perspective of a home user.  Look at it from a corporate perspective
> (which,
> > let's face it, is how MS and all the other Software ISVs earn their
> real
> > living).  It's NOT THE END USER'S MACHINE.  It belongs to the
> company.  If
> > they want to update it dynamically, MS is providing the tools to
> perform
> > this.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > He didn't give any details about the key
> > but I'm assuming Microsoft will certify this stuff somehow.
> > </SNIP>
> >
> > This will be verified the same as other software and SSL stuff.  The
> root
> > key authorities (Verisign, et al) will provide the code signing
keys.
> MS
> > will merely provide the framework and tools with which to sign /
> verify
> > keys.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > I can't see people giving up total control of their computers.  It's
> > just too risky with no rewards for the consumer.
> > </SNIP>
> >
> > While I agree with you, how many people will fork out $500 for a
copy
> of
> > OfficeXP?  Not very many.  Now, ask that same group of people if
they
> would
> > pay $19.95 a month for Office.NET ?  Probably many more.  While you
or
> I may
> > not like this model, it's the one Americans are already familiar
with.
> > Think cable.  Rent.  Car Lease.  We are already used to the payment
> model.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> > And businesses will
> > never go for sending their sensitive data over the internet to MS's
> > servers just to write a letter or update a spreadsheet.
> > </SNIP>
> > Again, do a global search and replace and exchange the words
> > s/Internet/intranet/
> > Companies will have no problems doing all of this on their internet
> > networks.  And that is what Microsoft is planning on (and software
> vendors
> > and programmers like myself are counting on.)  It won't be about
> Really Big
> > Company, Inc storing their stuff on the MS servers.  It will be
about
> them
> > licensing an Office.NET server (or server farm - remember, this is
> > NT/W2K/XP, home of the 'little iron') with a 60,000 user license.
> >
> > This is just the point of view of a single MS developer who's had
some
> > exposure to the technologies involved.  Everybody is entitled to
their
> > opinions, so please don't flame me for mine (though constructive
> argument
> > and criticism is welcome!)
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Jerry Dennany
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Rose [mailto:jojerose at mindspring.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:46 PM
> > To: ale at ale.org
> > Subject: Re: [ale] MS Propaganda representative
> >
> >
> >        Actually it went quite well.  It was pretty interesting to
hear
> > MS's strategy first hand and I have to say.... I am quite excited
> about
> > .Net.  I think this could be the best thing for Linux.  They are
> really
> > trying to force people to use MS products over the internet.  Let me
> > repeat ... You will have to use MS Office, Windows etc. over the
> > internet. Businesses will never go for that.  Individuals will HATE
> it.
> > You could hear a collective groan from the Softies in the room as
they
> > realised they wouldn't be able to use bootleg software anymore.
They
> > want subscription services so bad they don't care how their
customers
> > react.  And of course if you let your subscription run out I believe
> you
> > will lose the use of the software.  Forced upgrades on temporary
> > software.  Unbelievable.
> >           And the .Net platform?  Well I think parts of it are
> > interesting and could actually be quite useful.  But other parts are
> > quite scary.  I think it will be a security nightmare.  From what I
> > gather, MS believes most everything will be done over the internet
and
> > because of that you will have to allow websites to execute code on
> your
> > machine.  DLL's can
> > be updated dynamically and programs changed almost dynamically.  The
> > example the rep used was Coca Cola has 70,000 PC's and to update all
> of
> > them to Office whatever would cost $30,000,000 on top of the
> licensing.
> > With .Net downloading one DLL will upgrade them all because they
> aren't
> > really on every machine.  Basically other people will have the
ability
> > to upgrade your machine at will!  But you could also use that to
> infect
> > 70,000 machines at once!  But for security, your browser will tell
you
> > what is being done to your machine as it is being done and DLL's are
> > required to have a proper key.  He didn't give any details about the
> key
> > but I'm assuming Microsoft will certify this stuff somehow.  Time
ran
> > out as he was explaining how you could safely allow others to
install
> > and run code on your machine over the internet so I don't quite
> > understand it.
> >         So if MS pulls this off they will be the supreme Lords of
> > Computing but
> > I can't see people giving up total control of their computers.  It's
> > just too risky with no rewards for the consumer.  And businesses
will
> > never go for sending their sensitive data over the internet to MS's
> > servers just to write a letter or update a spreadsheet.  So if MS
> > doesn't back off on this, I think Linux will look mighty good to a
> whole
> > lot of people.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 12:54, Cade Thacker wrote:
> > > So how did this go?
> > >
> > >
> > > --cade
> > >
> > > On Linux vs Windows
> > > ==================
> > > Remember, amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic!
> > > ==================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 15 Apr 2002, Jeff Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > > My professor says it's ok if my friends sit in on this thing so
> > > > friends... anyone wishing to witness this, bring your wooden
> stakes
> > and
> > > > garlic.  I'll be the guy in the Linux t-shirt.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
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> list.
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
James P. Kinney III   \Changing the mobile computing world/
President and CEO      \          one Linux user         /
Local Net Solutions,LLC \           at a time.          /
770-493-8244             \.___________________________./

GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
<jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7 

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