[ale] MS Propaganda representative

Jim Popovitch jimpop at rocketship.com
Wed Apr 17 19:59:08 EDT 2002 


Hi 
Jerome,
Thanks for the good level insight<SPAN 
class=766145823-17042002> and answers and the unique perspective you 
bring.
 
-Jim 
P.
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Dennany, Jerome 
  {D177~Roswell} [mailto:JEROME.DENNANY at ROCHE.COM]Sent: Wednesday, 
  April 17, 2002 3:52 PMTo: 'ale at ale.org'Subject: RE: 
  [ale] MS Propaganda representative
  Well, I'm a developer that currently works with .NET, and 
  perhaps I can clear up a few points.  .NET people speak alot about the 
  Internet, and providing software services over the internet.  It isn't 
  specifically about running things over an open internet connection, but more a 
  'distributed application' approach, which is pretty important in a large 
  geographically distributed corporation.
  <SNIP> You will have to use MS 
  Office, Windows etc. over the internet. Businesses will never go for 
  that. </SNIP> 
  While business may not be excited about using applications 
  over the Internet, they are typically _VERY_ excited about centrally 
  maintained applications, ease of deployment, etc.  So, while they may not 
  be excited about MS Office over the Internet, the idea of the typical user 
  running a session or certain types of software in a virtual environment is a 
  system admin's dream.
  <SNIP> From what I gather, MS 
  believes most everything will be done over the internet and <FONT 
  size=2>because of that you will have to allow websites to execute code on 
  your machine.  <FONT 
  size=2></SNIP> 
  .NET has a fine-grained security model, allowing system 
  administrators (and programmers) detailed control over what can run (or should 
  run - I'm a pragmatist, not a Microsoft apologist.  I understand that MS 
  has a well-deserved bad reputation for security problems at both the OS and 
  applications levels).  However, don't think that just because it _can_ be 
  done, you can't turn it off. 
  <SNIP> DLL's can be updated 
  dynamically and programs changed almost dynamically. <FONT 
  size=2></SNIP> 
  This already happens with products like Symantec's live 
  update.  From an administrator's standpoint, this can be a _good_ 
  thing.  The fewer desktops you have to visit to perform an applications 
  upgrade, the more you can concentrate on your _real_ job (Automating your 
  maintenance scripts so you can play more UT).
  <SNIP> Basically other people 
  will have the ability to upgrade your machine at will! <FONT 
  size=2></SNIP> I think this is it in a nutshell 
  - you are looking at it from the perspective of a home user.  Look at it 
  from a corporate perspective (which, let's face it, is how MS and all the 
  other Software ISVs earn their real living).  It's NOT THE END USER'S 
  MACHINE.  It belongs to the company.  If they want to update it 
  dynamically, MS is providing the tools to perform this.
  <SNIP> He didn't give any 
  details about the key but I'm assuming Microsoft will 
  certify this stuff somehow. </SNIP> 
  This will be verified the same as other software and SSL 
  stuff.  The root key authorities (Verisign, et al) will provide the code 
  signing keys.  MS will merely provide the framework and tools with which 
  to sign / verify keys.
  <SNIP> I can't see people giving 
  up total control of their computers.  It's just 
  too risky with no rewards for the consumer.  <FONT 
  size=2></SNIP> 
  While I agree with you, how many people will fork out $500 for 
  a copy of OfficeXP?  Not very many.  Now, ask that same group of 
  people if they would pay $19.95 a month for Office.NET ?  Probably many 
  more.  While you or I may not like this model, it's the one Americans are 
  already familiar with.  Think cable.  Rent.  Car Lease.  
  We are already used to the payment model.
  <SNIP> And businesses 
  will never go for sending their sensitive data over 
  the internet to MS's servers just to write a letter or 
  update a spreadsheet. </SNIP> <FONT 
  size=2>Again, do a global search and replace and exchange the words 
  s/Internet/intranet/ Companies will have no problems 
  doing all of this on their internet networks.  And that is what Microsoft 
  is planning on (and software vendors and programmers like myself are counting 
  on.)  It won't be about Really Big Company, Inc storing their stuff on 
  the MS servers.  It will be about them licensing an Office.NET server (or 
  server farm - remember, this is NT/W2K/XP, home of the 'little iron') with a 
  60,000 user license.
  This is just the point of view of a single MS developer who's 
  had some exposure to the technologies involved.  Everybody is entitled to 
  their opinions, so please don't flame me for mine (though constructive 
  argument and criticism is welcome!)
  Respectfully, 
  Jerry Dennany 
  -----Original Message----- From: Jeff 
  Rose [<A 
  href="mailto:jojerose at mindspring.com">mailto:jojerose at mindspring.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:46 PM <FONT 
  size=2>To: ale at ale.org Subject: Re: [ale] MS 
  Propaganda representative 
         Actually it went quite 
  well.  It was pretty interesting to hear MS's 
  strategy first hand and I have to say.... I am quite excited about 
  .Net.  I think this could be the best thing for 
  Linux.  They are really trying to force people to 
  use MS products over the internet.  Let me repeat 
  ... You will have to use MS Office, Windows etc. over the <FONT 
  size=2>internet. Businesses will never go for that.  Individuals will 
  HATE it. You could hear a collective groan from the 
  Softies in the room as they realised they wouldn't be 
  able to use bootleg software anymore.  They want 
  subscription services so bad they don't care how their customers 
  react.  And of course if you let your subscription run 
  out I believe you will lose the use of the 
  software.  Forced upgrades on temporary <FONT 
  size=2>software.  Unbelievable. <FONT 
  size=2>          And the .Net 
  platform?  Well I think parts of it are <FONT 
  size=2>interesting and could actually be quite useful.  But other parts 
  are quite scary.  I think it will be a security 
  nightmare.  From what I gather, MS believes most 
  everything will be done over the internet and because 
  of that you will have to allow websites to execute code on your 
  machine.  DLL's can be updated 
  dynamically and programs changed almost dynamically.  The 
  example the rep used was Coca Cola has 70,000 PC's and to 
  update all of them to Office whatever would cost 
  $30,000,000 on top of the licensing. With .Net 
  downloading one DLL will upgrade them all because they aren't <FONT 
  size=2>really on every machine.  Basically other people will have the 
  ability to upgrade your machine at will!  But you 
  could also use that to infect 70,000 machines at 
  once!  But for security, your browser will tell you <FONT 
  size=2>what is being done to your machine as it is being done and DLL's 
  are required to have a proper key.  He didn't 
  give any details about the key but I'm assuming 
  Microsoft will certify this stuff somehow.  Time ran <FONT 
  size=2>out as he was explaining how you could safely allow others to 
  install and run code on your machine over the internet 
  so I don't quite understand it.  <FONT 
  size=2>        So if MS pulls this off they 
  will be the supreme Lords of Computing but 
  I can't see people giving up total control of their 
  computers.  It's just too risky with no rewards 
  for the consumer.  And businesses will never go 
  for sending their sensitive data over the internet to MS's <FONT 
  size=2>servers just to write a letter or update a spreadsheet.  So if 
  MS doesn't back off on this, I think Linux will look 
  mighty good to a whole lot of people. 
  Jeff 
  On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 12:54, Cade Thacker wrote: 
  > So how did this go? > 
  > > --cade 
  > > On Linux vs Windows 
  > ================== > 
  Remember, amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic! 
  > ================== > 
  > > <FONT 
  size=2>> On 15 Apr 2002, Jeff Rose wrote: > 
  > > My professor says it's ok if my friends sit 
  in on this thing so > > friends... anyone 
  wishing to witness this, bring your wooden stakes <FONT 
  size=2>and > > garlic.  I'll be the guy in 
  the Linux t-shirt. > > <FONT 
  size=2>> > > > <FONT 
  size=2>> > > > --- <FONT 
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  for more info. Problems should be <FONT 
  size=2>> > sent to listmaster at ale dot org. <FONT 
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