<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Solomon Peachy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pizza@shaftnet.org" target="_blank">pizza@shaftnet.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:51:54PM -0400, leam hall wrote:<br>
> > It's not much of a history if it was written on July 31, 1992.<br>
><br>
> It provides insight into original motivations.<br>
<br>
</span>I believe the quote "Just for fun" encapsulates Linus's original<br>
motivations. Oh, and not being able to afford a RealUnix(tm) system...<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>One reason I started using Linux was cost. It became fun, after a kinda frustrating learning curve.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span class="">
> Yes. We have a system that's vastly technically superior, highly<br>
> customizable, and provided under Free Software license. It was also not so<br>
> intrusive, and that is what really bugs me.<br>
<br>
</span>Wait -- what are you claiming is "vastly technically superior" here?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ah, sorry, my lack of clarity. The init process is vastly technically superior to the Windows boot process. <br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="">
> There is the philosophy of "small tools" as a point of elegance. There is<br>
> also the pragmatic requirement of not having to learn a new OS amount of<br>
> stuff to stay on the same OS. There is also the point of lightweight which<br>
> keeps systems zippy. There is also the basic idea of giving you options.<br>
<br>
</span>I get that systemd uses a different approach. But that doesn't<br>
automatically make it bad.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed. <br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Since you're bringing up the "do one thing, do it well" philosophy, if<br>
you're being honest you'll also measure the alternatives with that same<br>
yardstick.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
But let me ask explicitly -- how is systemd's design not "elegant"? How<br>
is is not a collection of "small tools"?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Because one cannot improve on one tool without breaking (into) the others. For example, the RH "chkconfig" and "system" commands integrated into the existing init scripts. You could choose to use them, or not. If someone came from another *nix flavor they would have a basic knowledge of the init system. <br><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span class="">
> Really, I hear nothing about systemd that makes me think it's a good idea.<br>
> When it's so intrusive it definitely becomes a bad idea. Really, from<br>
> usability and morality it is no better than MS.<br>
<br>
</span>So.. you're seriously equating software freely released under a copyleft<br>
license (and adopted on its merits) to a completely closed, proprietary<br>
system which gained market share by way of coercive,<br>
proven-in-court-illegal behaivor?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. Even though, as far as we know, the systemd folks haven't been nearly so legally wrong as others, they are being as demanding and unopen. "Our way or the highway."<br><br></div><div>From <a href="http://www.pcworld.com/article/2841873/meet-systemd-the-controversial-project-taking-over-a-linux-distro-near-you.html">http://www.pcworld.com/article/2841873/meet-systemd-the-controversial-project-taking-over-a-linux-distro-near-you.html</a><br><br>"The systemd project also
contains logind, a daemon that manages user logins, and journald, an
event-logging system that controversially writes to binary files and not
text ones. Systemd has also absorbed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev">the udev project</a> and its code, which handles the management of virtual device files in the <strong>/dev/</strong> directory and events when devices are plugged in and unplugged. The list goes on and on: systemd also includes a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cron">cron</a>-style task scheduler and networkd, a daemon for managing network connections.<span itemprop="articleBody text">
<p style="">More recently, systemd is gaining consoled, a user-mode
console daemon that can be used when Linux’s virtual terminal code is
stripped out of the kernel itself. The kernel developers seem happy to
get this stuff out of the kernel and into user-space , but some people
have to be thinking: Does systemd really have to take over this as well?"</p><p style=""></p></span><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
...You sure have a strange definition of "morality".<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I consider the intrusiveness of systemd to be against what I understand about Linux. Which does not make me right and everyone else wrong. <br><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I really don't care what you use; that's your choice. However, I do care<br>
when opinions are publically justified by vague, hand-waving appeals to<br>
emotion that aren't backed up by anything resembling facts.<br>
<br>
You have every right to your own opinions (and choices) -- just not your<br>
own facts.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The facts I refer to, and I'm open to being corrected, are that systemd replaces several functions previously unrelated and that it precludes using similar functionality in a side by side manner. Are you disagreeing with those points?<br><br></div><div>I understand the init system may not be the best solution for what is needed today. It meets my needs but it might not meet the needs of others. My own preference would have been for a new system that could stand alongside the existing and would let people move into it. <br></div></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Leam<br clear="all"></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div><a href="http://leamhall.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Mind on a Mission</a></div></div>
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