<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">+1 for that.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Scott Plante <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:splante@insightsys.com" target="_blank">splante@insightsys.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:#000000"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Or when "9/11 Truthers" would argue that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt the steel girders in the towers, I'd ask, "but what about those tanks of chemicals they use to make the chemtrails? Who knows how hot that stuff burns?"</span></font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory</a></font><br><br><hr style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none"><b>From: </b>"Charles Shapiro" <<a href="mailto:hooterpincher@gmail.com">hooterpincher@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts" <<a href="mailto:ale@ale.org">ale@ale.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:31:15 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ale] [Fwd: Advertising on <a href="http://ale.org">ale.org</a>] - OT MS vs Apple vs Linux/UNIX<br><br><div dir="ltr"><div>I chalk it all up to the Moon Landing Conspiracy. The moon landings were all faked, in a studio ON THE MOON.<br><br></div>-- CHS<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Damon L. Chesser <span dir="ltr"><<a>damon@damtek.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br>
<br>
On 09/12/2015 04:21 PM, Steve Litt wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 22:17:46 +0300<br>
<a>damon@damtek.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Ahhh. No<br>
It is in response to the long thread and the strong opinions in the<br>
thread and in fact was not directed at you or anybody else<br>
specifically. And IAW Godwin's law, I have now lost the debate.<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, you have. Godwin's law doesn't work anymore, and it was always in<br>
bad taste.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Seriously, it was merely meant in jest. Don't like systemd, don't use<br>
it. Like systemd, use it.<br>
</blockquote>
The preceding two sentences encapsulate the entire issue.<br>
<br>
If systemd were just another modular, replaceable init, everyone you<br>
hear cursing it would be dancing in the streets. And truth be told, a<br>
lot of us might then choose to use systemd in certain use cases.<br>
<br>
The problem is, systemd has been engineered from the ground up to<br>
exchange dependencies with every part of the Linux system. The<br>
motivations for doing this are up for debate, but most folks who have<br>
every alt-initted a system will vouch for this: Once you're using a<br>
distro that has incorporated systemd as PID1, replacing systemd or any<br>
part of it is very, very difficult.<br>
<br>
For instance, if you currently have sysvinit, OpenRC, runit, s6 or<br>
Epoch, switching to runit, s6 or Epoch involves installing the new<br>
init, making a new run script (runit or s6) or config section (Epoch)<br>
for each *real* process (not the tens of no-reason processes and<br>
one-shots run by systemd). Not trivial, but not difficult for a Linux<br>
knowledgeable person. You also have to make a shutdown script, and you<br>
can find a lot of boilerplate for that on the Internet. It's also<br>
possible that you'll need to make minor alterations to your initramfs,<br>
but that's actually doubtful.<br>
<br>
Same thing with a systemd computer: Replace it with runit, s6 or Epoch.<br>
Now you need to find a udev equivalent, compile it, get it working. Or<br>
else you need to do a lot of workarounds with systemd's udev. You need<br>
to take dracut, and use it to create an initramfs that does *nothing<br>
but* mount the root partition, and then hand control to the on-disk<br>
init. As you do this, contemplate the trouble you'll be in if the<br>
systemd industry ever conquers dracut, the way it conquered udev. If<br>
so, you'll be back to hand-creating initramfs. And of course you'll<br>
need to do all the same things I mentioned when describing alt-initting<br>
a non-systemd box.<br>
<br>
Consider that if sysvinit had been as monolithically entangled with the<br>
user portion of the OS (and the kernel if they get their way with<br>
kdbus) as systemd is, Red Hat would have had to spend triple what they<br>
did to create a replacement init. But like all the other inits except<br>
systemd, sysvinit is an encapsulated PID1 plus service manager, so it<br>
was easy to replace. The systemd industry climbed the ladder of<br>
modularity, and then pulled the ladder up after them.<br>
<br>
I understand you're probably init agnostic, and that's fine. But you<br>
need to be thankful for the people working hard to provide alternatives<br>
to the Redhat funded juggernaut, because if Redhat ever succeeds in<br>
eliminating alternatives to systemd, they'll have a monopoly on Linux.<br>
Most entities who gain a monopoly do not behave well, and the user pays<br>
the price.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div>
I am with Michael on this point. I am init agnostic and just don't care, but to claim the evil empire of Red Hat is behind this? Seems a bit bombastic? We all know the freedom haters of Debian remove choice at every turn, and that is why they are backing the init choice of systemd. Once Red Hat controls everything, then Debian can finally close down. Who needs those pesky Debian dev meetings anyway? Always yammering about some social contract this and social contract that.<br>
<br>
Gento wanted to give it's users only one choice, most like due to Red Hat financial interests, but the user base needed to be appeased, so they gave you a "choice" of which system to use when you installed it. Some choice. Systemd or the old system! Ha! Only two choices! Proof they are in league!<span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
SteveT<br>
<br>
Steve Litt<br>
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts<br>
<a rel="noreferrer">http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br></span><span><font color="#888888">
-- <br>
<a>Damon@damtek.com</a><br>
<a>404-271-8699</a></font></span><div><div><br>
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