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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The previous statement:<br>
<br>
Which is the greater threat, government, or "criminals" ?<br>
<br>
says it all................<br>
<br>
Criminals are people which a given government designates as those
violating it's dictates, however established, i.e. government<small>
is<big> <big>the threat, either directly<br>
either by it's existence or by it's action, i.e. by
legislating what is a "crime"</big></big></small> and
enforcing same. <br>
<br>
The founders of this country clearly saw government, including
this one, as the existential problem and attempted to establish a
program of improved governance, realizing<br>
that this is a moving target and it is the responsibility, going
forward, or each generation, to either maintain, or redress, and
hopefully even improve, democratic goals,<br>
<br>
Finally, the truth is: the problem is not the government, rather
the people of the United States now have the government they have
earned, and are earning. Nothing's free,<br>
especially freedom.<br>
<br>
As Dylan said at the conclusion of his "115th Dream", "I jes
say good luck"<br>
<br>
Courtney Thomas <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/21/2013 10:07 PM, Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1f617d06-e585-4147-927f-97557753c956@email.android.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Jim,
You and I don't agree on this and probably never will. There's no point in beating the issue to death and I don't want to get in a flame war. Nor do I mean any offense.
Your first statement is understandable, and I could even agree with it to a point, depending on the circumstances.
Your second statement is patently false. Otherwise, we'd have no laws.
Good people don't commit crimes primarily because crimes generally hurt or kill people and hurting and killing people is morally wrong.
Evil people don't commit crimes for one of three main reasons. Those reasons do NOT include any moral inhibition. A) They're afraid of getting caught and punished. B) They don't have the resources. or C) They have been caught and are prevented from committing the crime.
Laws and law enforcement attempt to, and sometimes do, accomplish these things. So, to the extent that laws and law enforcement frighten criminals, deprive them of resources, and detain them, then laws stop crimes. That extent is definitively NOT nothing. Laws and law enforcement DO stop some crimes. Obviously, however, they don't stop ALL crimes.
Furthermore, it's a documented fact that 75% or so of violent felonies are committed by repeat offenders. So, if you permanently imprison or execute them the next time they repeat, then you reduce violent felonies by 75%.
Sincerely,
Ron
Jim Kinney <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jim.kinney@gmail.com"><jim.kinney@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I choose to surrender NOTHING for a false sense of security. Laws don't
stop crime.
On Aug 21, 2013 3:27 PM, "Ron Frazier (ALE)" <
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:atllinuxenthinfo@techstarship.com">atllinuxenthinfo@techstarship.com</a>> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
JD <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jdp@algoloma.com"><jdp@algoloma.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 08/21/2013 01:56 PM, leam hall wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
What I don't have an answer for it the balance between justice and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">privacy.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">While Ben Franklin's old quote is a great idea, there are too many
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">bad people in
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the world who didn't read it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
So the 99.9999999% of good people in the world should give up their
privacy and
governments shouldn't be held accountable?
The terrorist have truly won.
I am more afraid of my own government than any acts of terror.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Hi JD,
I am not endorsing the over reaching abuse of our government. See my
other post today for commentary.
However, I find your last statement to be fairly radical.
I do not have ANY fear that the workers at NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. will
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">be
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">using their power and knowledge to take the lives of 3000 of our
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">citizens
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">and destroy billions of dollars of property as the the terrorists did
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">at
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">World Trade Center. Those workers are, almost universally, working
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">to
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">prevent OUR lives from ending in a similar manner and protect us from
threats that we don't even know exist in some cases. Let's keep a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">little
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">perspective here.
Good people have been giving up rights and privileges due to the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">actions
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of a small percentage of bad actors since the beginning of the world.
There are thousands of laws which we must obey, not because WE would
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">abuse
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">our fellow citizens and customers and associates, but because OTHERS
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">would
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">abuse them. Those laws either make it harder for them to abuse or
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">easier
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">for us to catch and prosecute them or both. But, they also make it
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">much
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">harder on the good people and limit what we can do. There's no way
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">around
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this, as a concept. It's just the way the world will always work as
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">long
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">as evil is in play.
The key is to find the right balance of what do you give up to stop
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">the
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">bad actors or at least slow them down and catch some of them.
Sincerely,
Ron
--
Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Mail.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Please excuse my potential brevity if I'm typing on the touch screen.
(PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">to
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">call on the phone. I get about 300 emails per day from alternate
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">energy
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">mailing lists and such. I don't always see new email messages very
quickly.)
Ron Frazier
770-205-9422 (O) Leave a message.
linuxdude AT techstarship.com
Litecoin: LZzAJu9rZEWzALxDhAHnWLRvybVAVgwTh3
Bitcoin: 15s3aLVsxm8EuQvT8gUDw3RWqvuY9hPGUU
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9 Mail.
Please excuse my potential brevity if I'm typing on the touch screen.
(PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
call on the phone. I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
mailing lists and such. I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)
Ron Frazier
770-205-9422 (O) Leave a message.
linuxdude AT techstarship.com
Litecoin: LZzAJu9rZEWzALxDhAHnWLRvybVAVgwTh3
Bitcoin: 15s3aLVsxm8EuQvT8gUDw3RWqvuY9hPGUU
_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a>
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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