<div dir="ltr"><div><div>I don't see that erosion of 2cnd amendment has occurred to any degree that the others have.<br><br></div>No carry-able number of fully automatic weapons will match up against Apache attack helicopters with rockets, tanks with the ability to drop a 10 story building at 5 miles and the nuclear weapon trump card is _still_ held by the only government to ever use nuclear weapons against a civilian population.<br>
<br></div>I, too, do not expect perfection of freedom. But it is a desired goal that must be worked for and not abandoned just because it's hard. I don't see freedom and security as being diametrically opposed either. In fact, i see true freedom and true security as being a symbiotic relationship. It is only through freedom that we will have security. <br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Ron Frazier (ALE) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:atllinuxenthinfo@techstarship.com" target="_blank">atllinuxenthinfo@techstarship.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ed,<br>
<br>
Perhaps I didn't say that last part too well. The ambiguity that I meant to bring up is in the level of falseness of the sense of security.<br>
<br>
So, I agree with Jim in that I don't want to give up any freedoms for a [totally] false sense of security. But, I think the assumption that the sense of security is totally false, is a wrong assumption. (Couldn't figure a better way to word that.)<br>
<br>
Would I give up some freedoms in exchange for some REAL sense of security? Yes, I would. But the trick is where to draw the line. We've probably already given up too much.<br>
<br>
Would I give up all my freedoms, and have all my actions watched, verified, officially permitted or not, and recorded, all the time, everywhere (assuming we even have a choice); in order to have perfect safety, perfect predictability, and perfect boredom? No, I would not wish to do that.<br>
<br>
To be clear, the course we've gone down with nsa and such and all the freedoms that we have eroded, including the 2nd and 4th and 5th amendments, is a serious concern to me and I think we're going the wrong way. We need to back up, get back to the constitution, and adapt our laws for the modern era. I have posted messages here a couple of times endorsing the EFF.<br>
<br>
However, neither do I expect perfect unlimited freedom nor do I expect perfect unlimited safety. Reality is somewhere in the middle.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
Edward Holcroft <<a href="mailto:eholcroft@mkainc.com">eholcroft@mkainc.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
>"Your second statement is patently false. Otherwise, we'd have no<br>
>laws."<br>
><br>
>Conversely, one could argue that Jim's statement is patently true,<br>
>otherwise we'd have no crime. Both positions, I suspect, contain some<br>
>form<br>
>of logical fallacy.<br>
><br>
>I'm also wondering Ron, what are those circumstances under which you'd<br>
>be<br>
>willing to surrender something (a civil liberty) in exchange for a<br>
</div>>*false<br>
>sense of security* ("Your first statement is understandable, and I<br>
>could<br>
>even agree with it *to a point, depending on the circumstances*."), and<br>
<div class="im">>why<br>
>on earth would one ever be willing to do so?<br>
><br>
>ed<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
</div>-snip-<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9 Mail.<br>
Please excuse my potential brevity if I'm typing on the touch screen.<br>
<br>
(PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to<br>
call on the phone. I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy<br>
mailing lists and such. I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)<br>
<br>
Ron Frazier<br>
<a href="tel:770-205-9422" value="+17702059422">770-205-9422</a> (O) Leave a message.<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">-- <br>James P. Kinney III<br><i><i><i><i><br></i></i></i></i>Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
own tail. It won't fatten the dog.<br>
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain<br><i><i><i><i><br><a href="http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</a><br></i></i></i></i></div>
</div>