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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">When we would set upon a school, there
was a process for getting the servers in and up and then
registering the thin clients to classrooms and therefore their
associated printers, but once that was done, "light-up day" was
always a joy to experience. Everything was fast - and *stayed*
fast. Yes, the servers could really get loaded up but they were
meant for that, and some apps like Firefox scaled well in terms of
multiple instances' use of RAM. We saw kids who had never used
PCs before being taught by other kids how to use a mouse in just a
matter of minutes. <br>
<br>
But what we found is that the money that school districts plow
into tech is like honey to ants. As I recall, Jim did the math
and determined that the entire project cost - our time included
(once we finally got PAID!!) - was around $600 a seat. Yes,
that's a lot of money, but considering that we were using on-hand
equipment (that's a whole 'nother story) and therefore not able to
cram the costs down even further, that's pretty sweet considering
how huge the outcome was. Now, had we been able to scale up to
district size - we were working on monitor-back thin clients that
we could have gotten for a song at tens-of-thousands qualtity, and
to improve the cost-effectiveness and efficiency of deployment I
had designed things like transport cases to hold
thin-client/monitor assemblies for bulk-loading into 18-wheelers
(we were actually prepared to preassemble entire tables full of
TCs and load them into slotted trolley carts such that we could
build out a school over a weekend). I'd worked up a design for a
quad hex bit for an air wrench that could attach a thin client,
stand, and monitor together in a single operation. But no; more
people make more money off the school district when it goes down
the way APS wound up going.<br>
<br>
On 7/2/13 3:45 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAEo=5Pz7EHUNjpuJPuNBfUOLnYBq8RV4os2S+ic8BfqTivntxw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I am honored to have been of help. That time was
the happiest I've been using Linux and making a real difference.
It was part of why I ran for school board.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Edward Holcroft <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eholcroft@mkainc.com" target="_blank">eholcroft@mkainc.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Ah Jim,
this discussion brings up so many bitter-sweet memories
for me. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">
I remember when you were running the K12LTSP list, and I
was deploying K12LTSP in disadvantaged schools in deep
rural South Africa. Your list was my core survival tool
and Jim you personally solved many problems for me and
the non-profit I was running at the time. The heady days
of Etherboot and rom-o-matic (when Ken Yap himself would
help me resolve boot issues), hand-built UV eprom
erasers, reclaiming old BIOS chips from dead
motherboards to create etherboot NICs. My EPROM
programmer was the single most expensive piece of
equipment that we owned. We made thin clients out of
refurbed PC's that were donated to us by government
departments and some companies. By tapping into the
corporate social responsibility project of UniForum (the
.za domain administrators) we were able to deploy
several thousand seats into the most grueling of
environments. I believe they are still running to this
day (although with the demise of K12LTSP, the project
switched to Ubuntu shortly after I left South Africa). </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Finding
you on ALE when I moved to Atlanta really brought home
to me what a small world it is. One day I plan to attend
a monthly meeting so that I can thank you in person and
tell you the story, or perhaps one chapter of the story,
of thousands of Linux-using schoolkids in Africa that
you had no idea you actually helped! And drink beer.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Your
stories of corruption are distressing to me because they
sound so much like what I encountered in South Africa at
one level or another. It bothers the heck out of me to
see the same issues cropping up in an officially
developed nation: we have no excuse for this kind of
behavior in the US (not that anyone does of course, but
here we're quick to use terms like Third World
corruption, banana republic and so on, when we seem to
be living in a glass house). When it came time for a
government sponsored rollout into all 2000-odd schools
in one South African province, Microsoft and their OEM
partners came out hitting hard, and even though we
deployed a fully functional demo site that "just worked"
while the Windows teams were still booting, there was NO
chance that Linux was going to happen ... too many palms
greased and too much incompetence. In another South
African province a DoE official actually threatened me
with "consequences" if I dared to install non-Windows
systems: I turned that province into my show-piece.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">One
tale of woe, and there certainly were a few: the DoE
sent a Doze technician to one of our sites who was so
confuzzled by not being able to find hard drives in the
refurbs, that he went and installed hard drives, and
Windows, on each machine! After that little experience
we started to glue-gun the IDE ports on the MB's before
deploying. lol. You can't win 'em all.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Anyway,
just want to say is it's awesome that there are still
believers out there. I would be willing to join with
someone, or better yet a team of people, in taking a
shot at rekindling the idea in Atlanta schools.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The
concept-plan I used in South Africa was very community
oriented - we would have the school take responsibility
for basic infrastructure and even have the kids help
pulling Ethernet cables, with teachers and senior
students trained in system administration. Regrettably,
I had to leave SA before implementing the full
self-sustaining concept that I had in mind (that's
another story). I still believe though, that the basic
concept is universal and regardless of the fact that
Windows and corruption won one battle in Atlanta, the
war is far from over as many fervently Microsoft shops
are more susceptible than ever to the viability of FOSS.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">cheers</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">ed</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at
10:58 PM, Jim Kinney <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jim.kinney@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jim.kinney@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>I had no more resources to
throw at it. After it was all
over, I ran the numbers and
thanks to the ridiculous number
of meetings I had to go to on
the project I made just barely
over $5 an hour. Can't feed a
family on that even working 60+
hours a week.<br>
<br>
</div>
We looked at expanding that
process and there was just not
enough traction to justify staying
in it. Marketing up against
"everyone use Windows" was outside
of our financial ability. When I
spoke at NECC (National
Educational Computing Conference)
in San Antonio in 2008, the room
was quite surprised to hear the
greatest single challenge was
"political engineering". My
surprise was that the room was
packed to overflowing.<br>
<br>
</div>
Don't get me wrong: the process
WORKS. We came up with the first
generation of LTSP that would scale
to 10's of thousands of simultaneous
clients. What we did has not be
replicated at even half that scale
anywhere in the western hemisphere
to date. There are some projects in
Europe and Scandavian countries in
particular that are close to that
scale.<br>
<br>
</div>
Technology changes as well. What
worked then for thin client processes
is not an ongoing solution now.
Between 2006-2007 and now, KVM and
SPICE have progressed to provide a far
better user experience than what we
could do then with LTSP. Server
technology has vastly exceeded what we
built with in 2006. A dual proc, dual
core with a total of 8GB RAM was
sizable then and laughable now.
Schools we installed with 5 servers we
could do now with 1 and still have
expansion room. <br>
<br>
</div>
There was a serious emotional toll on
the project as well. Watching the
leadership squander resources to pad
their own pockets or just out of total
ignorance was bad enough. But watching
them do it at the expense of 140,000
kids who already getting kicked in the
social balls just by being there was too
much.<br>
<br>
</div>
On the very first school we worked at, we
met the librarian who was tickeled pink
about the whole project. When I ran into
her the following year at DragonCon, she
was spitting bile over the project in
general and us in particular. It seems the
day after we were "officially done", some
windows idiot from ITD went to her school
and messed with the servers and they never
worked again. Of course I was never
informed of this or else I would have
certainly RUN and fixed things. In fact,
that school was the one where we verified
the restore process that was fully
documented (step-by-step cookbook) and
provided to APS. They broke it and didn't
care. And the people who were trying to
make things work there had no power to get
anything done. As far as the librarian was
concerned, we built an unstable system
that broke as soon as we left and no one
could fix it so it was bad from the
beginning.<br>
<br>
</div>
People expect Windows to crash and loose
data. But a Linux system is touted as being
so uch better and more stable so that when
ANYTHING goes wrong, the PHBs and everyone
want to throw it all out. APS really thought
LTSP would work like a VCR. Set it up and
walk away and it magically works with no
intervention. Well, for the most part that
was true for most of the rest of the year.
The next school year, all the thin clients
were in different rooms and didn't
autoregister (by design - needed to KNOW
which room they were in for many reasons)
and manually registering was about 20 file
edits per system. <br>
<br>
</div>
<sigh> good and bad memories from all of
that.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 1,
2013 at 10:09 PM, Dustin Strickland <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dustin.h.strickland@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dustin.h.strickland@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Well, why not try a
different area? You might be
surprised at the results.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon,
Jul 1, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Jeff
Hubbs <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jhubbslist@att.net"
target="_blank">jhubbslist@att.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div>Where to begin,
indeed. The crying
shame is that we (Aaron,
Jim, and I) had done a
lot of the scenario
planning work to scale
up what we had done to
the entire district -
tens of thousands of
seats - and create the
industrial processes
we'd need to "go big"
and still improve on
what we'd done. We had
even joined forces with
an established and
well-respected 8(a)
local contracting firm
to make it easier to do
business with us. But
because of the
circumstances Jim
described, we couldn't
get a fair hearing even
though we had
demonstrated in no
uncertain terms that our
systems worked extremely
well in that environment
(even though we had
almost no control over
hardware selection).
Yet the outfit selected
to do the work couldn't
come close to
replicating what we had
accomplished even though
we mostly just made use
of very common tools and
capabilities present in
most any Linux
distribution. <br>
<div>
<div> <br>
On 7/1/13 7:55 PM,
Jim Kinney wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>where do
I begin....<br>
<br>
</div>
As referenced
in the ALE
posting, two
parents
installed
Linux in the
form of LTSP
in their
school. They
fought the APS
process and
managed to
show that
having working
computers used
more than 20
minutes a week
made a
significant
educational
improvement in
the school.
Most
importantly,
they found a
tipping point
ration of 3
students per
_classroom_
computer was
was the
minimum needed
to achieve
this impact.
The choice of
Linux was for
cost,
security,
reliability.
Using thin
clients
allowed a lot
of students to
use a single
"server" in
the classroom
and minimized
maintenance of
the overall
process.<br>
<br>
</div>
APS then was
motivated by the
performance
statistics to do
a larger-scale
pilot project.
That's where I
came in.
Assisted by
Aaron Ruscetta
and Jeff Hubbs,
over the span of
6 months we
deployed 33
enterprise-scale
server, 2200
thin clients in
7 elementary and
middle schools
for APS.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>At the end of
that school
year, schools
that had been
performing
poorly and had
solidly embraced
the new
classroom
technology
showed
significant
improvements.
Some of these
improvements
were not
manipulable by
faculty as the
tests were done
on line by the
students.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Once again,
APS had to
continue the
process as there
was compelling
reason to expand
what had started
as a parent
project.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>What happened
next was classic
APS corruption.
My team had
already been
first-hand
witness to
blatant theft of
servers,
contractors
being arrested
for attempting
to pickup
12-year-old
girls, and what
smelled
suspiciously of
refurbished
servers provided
as new servers
(of the 33
deployed, 12
failed out of
the box and
required new
motherboards).
APS handed the
next phase of
the process to a
contractor with
financial ties
to a person (who
was not an APS
employee but a
contractor with
no actual
contract) with
the authority to
decide who got
the contract.
The contractor
then managed to
never get a
single server
running LTSP in
any school
despite multiple
millions spent
in server
purchases. They
simply didn't
have the the
Linux expertise
to make it work.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>As I
understand it
now, the new
head of ITD
threw out the
entire pile and
put in windows
systems. The old
head of ITD is
under indictment
and many of the
APS ITD staff
should be
joining him. I
would strongly
recommend
avoiding APS on
this topic.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>I can't
confirm the
timeline of
events, but my
brief look when
the APS test
cheating scandal
hit the news
loosely aligns
with my
concerns: APS
chose to not
continue working
with me and my
team likely
because of the
"trouble" we
caused raising
red flags on
ethics. The
followup group
didn't have the
skills to
maintain Linux
systems and
certainly not
LTSP systems so
the existing
servers died of
neglect. The
performance
gains promised
in the grant
process that
funded the
initial and
following
installations
were not going
to materialize
so the need to
keep the funding
going in the ITD
group was a key
factor in APS
pushing test
cheating. The
cheating took
place in the
schools that
were touched by
the LTSP process
that were not
being
maintained. In
particular,
Parks Middle
School was one
of the schools
that showed
remarkable
improvements in
2 and 6 months
and the teachers
attributed it to
being able to
split the
classes in half
(we installed at
a 2:1 ratio
instead of the
minimum 3:1) and
the time spent
on test drill in
advance of the
actual tests due
to an abundance
of working
systems. Once
those systems
failed and APS
was unable to
return them to
service, the
performance
improvements
began to fade
and thus the
push to regain
them at any
cost.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>All sour
grapes aside,
what we saw when
those systems
went live was
nothing short of
total gratitude
from the
teachers and
rampant
enthusiasm from
the students.
That was the
highlight of my
professional
career so far.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Mon, Jul 1, 2013
at 7:07 PM,
Dustin
Strickland <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dustin.h.strickland@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dustin.h.strickland@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I have
been thinking
for the past
few weeks
about trying
to get my
local schools
to migrate to
Linux. It
seems like a
much-needed
change.
Technology is
becoming more
important with
each day that
passes-- and
the coverage
of it in the
curriculum is
disappointing,
to say the
least. I
remember when
I was in
Yeager middle
school, not
too long ago,
the only class
I had
pertaining to
computers or
technology was
a class on how
to use
Microsoft
Word.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Computers
are far too
important, and
other subjects
becoming far
too
deprecated(in
my opinion),
for coverage
of technology
in our schools
to be limited
to how to use
MS Word. It's
almost
insulting.
Sure, there
are programs
that the
majority of
people need to
be familiar
with, but kids
need to at
least know
about the
basic
components of
a computer and
the role of
the operating
system. It
seems to me a
logical step -
in order for
the children
to gain an
interest and
actually
learn, they
need to be
introduced to
Linux.
Perhaps, then,
we can see
about adding
some more
technology
into the
curriculum.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As I was
researching
this topic to
prepare a
statement for
the Douglas
County Board
of Education,
I stumbled
upon <a
href="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.ale/44438/"
target="_blank">http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.ale/44438/</a>">this</a>
posting. If
anyone has any
more
information on
this case,
please let me
know. I
haven't been
able to
contact the
Board of
Education yet,
but I will
keep you all
posted.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
-- <br>
James P. Kinney
III<br>
<i><i><i><i><br>
</i></i></i></i>Every
time you stop a
school, you will
have to build a
jail. What you
gain at one end
you lose at the
other. It's like
feeding a dog on
his own tail. It
won't fatten the
dog.<br>
- Speech
11/23/1900 Mark
Twain<br>
<i><i><i><i><br>
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href="http://electjimkinney.org" target="_blank">http://electjimkinney.org</a><br>
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href="http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</a><br>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
-- <br>
James P. Kinney III<br>
<i><i><i><i><br>
</i></i></i></i>Every time you stop
a school, you will have to build a jail.
What you gain at one end you lose at the
other. It's like feeding a dog on his own
tail. It won't fatten the dog.<br>
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain<br>
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href="http://electjimkinney.org"
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<div dir="ltr">Edward Holcroft | Madsen Kneppers &
Associates Inc.<br>
3020 Holcomb Bridge Rd. NW | Norcross, GA 30071<br>
O <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28770%29%20446-9606" value="+17704469606"
target="_blank">(770) 446-9606</a> | M <a
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target="_blank">(678) 587-8649</a><br>
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<span style="font-family:arial"><font>MADSEN, KNEPPERS &
ASSOCIATES USA, MKA Canada Inc. WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or
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James P. Kinney III<br>
<i><i><i><i><br>
</i></i></i></i>Every time you stop a school, you will
have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the
other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten
the dog.<br>
- Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain<br>
<i><i><i><i><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a>
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
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