Exactly. What this does do is require that public facing code that has the potential to cause harm is reviewed and approved by someone that society, working through bright people in the field, trusts will stamp that code as "best available methods at this time". There will still be loads of jobs for non-certified coders. <br>
<br>We already have the Business A -> Business B process. It doesn't work very well.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:46 AM, John Pilman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jcpilman@gmail.com" target="_blank">jcpilman@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Damon, I know that talk of registration can lead to that kind of apprehension, but that is not the way professional registration works. In my engineering office of 25 highly qualified and very productive people, only one is a registered engineer in Georgia (not me). Similarly, most medical treatment is carried out by people who are not board certified doctors. Whatever else professional registration does, it will not remove you from your job. </div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span><div class="gmail_extra"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">...John<div><br></div></div></div>
<br><br></font></span><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Chesser.Damon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Damon.Chesser@suntrust.com" target="_blank">Damon.Chesser@suntrust.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I find the idea of REQUIRING by law, a certain level of proficiency as determined by minimal educational standards and test results abhorrent. I hold no
degree. I do the work. 100% self educated. You just legislated me to the unemployment line. Just what we need, MORE government layers to comply with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">How about this, if business A is stupid and hires stupid people and has a security breach, all those customers can move to business B which was not stupid.
Business A has self regulated themselves out of the market or self regulated themselves out of stupid.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:Damon@damtek.com" target="_blank">Damon@damtek.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:ale-bounces@ale.org" target="_blank">ale-bounces@ale.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ale-bounces@ale.org" target="_blank">ale-bounces@ale.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jay Lozier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:06 PM</span></p><div><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ale@ale.org" target="_blank">ale@ale.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ale] a quick test of web site stupid</div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 03/06/2013 04:44 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:</p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Matt Hessel <<a href="mailto:matt.hessel@gmail.com" target="_blank">matt.hessel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<p>I see the idea behind the certification, but in practice that seems mostly useful to employers when hiring individuals with little on their resume.
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is different than a certification because there would be design/development standards required that are vendor independent.
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It's not for employers. It's for lawyers and judges to use as a bludgeon to make companies use good practices is coding for public consumption. If company FOO is in software development, and they provide code for banking, they MUST have
a certified banking code engineer on staff and sign off on the code or else that code is not legal to use for banking. Or they can pay a banking code engineering firm to evaluate their code and sign off if it suits the engineers standards.<br>
<br>
If mom-n-pop company hires a developer to put up a web site, they don't need a certified engineer to approve anything UNTIL they add something like shopping site with credit card stuff. If their website gets defaced because they hired an idiot, that's their
problem. If their website gets hacked and credit card data is stolen, then it's a criminal offense on them for deploying code that was not approved by a professional engineer. I see drop-in certified modules for various platforms to do this.
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This would help PHB inline; just tell them they will have an all expense paid multi-year vacation in the prison system.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I can't build a bridge for public use until I am a certified, tested and passed Professional Engineer. As a PE, it's MY name on the line for the stuff I sign off on. So a PE won't approve crap. Is it a perfect system? Nope. But it keeps slick talking idiots
from building bridges and practicing law and medicine.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Legally, there are slick idiots who manage to fool people from time to time.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
A person who passes a PE exam doesn't need much else on their resume. It's not possible to pass without mountains of knowledge and/or experience. There is already a Professional Software Engineer license process. What is needed is to add HIPPA and Banking modules
(or more generically - data security) and then require that places that use software in these fields have X years to be using certified, compliant software or they get shut down, fined out the ass or both for repeated violations. "Market forces" can't fix
this crap. It's like why we all drive on the right hand side of the road. Someone decided we have to clean up the mess and made it happen.<br>
<br>
like i need another project....</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Being from another engineering field you need the PE to review and sign off on the design. Also, for a PE it is a multi-step process of tests and experience. I believe there is an education requirement that you must have a physical science
or engineering (BS level or higher) to be allowed to take any exam. You must pass the EIT - Engineer-in-Training exam for a specific engineering discipline (Civil, Chemical, Electrical, etc), then you must work in the field for several years before you can
even take the PE exam in the same field. I believe there are continuing education requirements for a PE license.<br>
<br>
What I have seen is the PE requires the vendor to submit all design/load calculations for review with the drawings and documentation. The PE must approve the submission before you have permission to proceed; there might be a couple of rounds of submissions
before approval. Competent vendors know what is needed and often will only have the finalize the details for the submission.<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>Jay Lozier</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:jslozier@gmail.com" target="_blank">jslozier@gmail.com</a></pre>
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