<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/07/2013 08:44 AM, Chesser.Damon
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F1E3980DB8AB9946A64830BE610239A031441E9F@GA016E0MB02.corp.suntrust.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
p
{margin-right:0in;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black}
pre
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{font-family:Consolas;
color:black}
span.EmailStyle20
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.WordSection1
{}
-->
</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">I find the idea of REQUIRING by law, a
certain level of proficiency as determined by minimal
educational standards and test results abhorrent. I hold no
degree. I do the work. 100% self educated. You just
legislated me to the unemployment line. Just what we need,
MORE government layers to comply with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">How about this, if business A is stupid and
hires stupid people and has a security breach, all those
customers can move to business B which was not stupid.
Business A has self regulated themselves out of the market
or self regulated themselves out of stupid.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Damon@damtek.com">Damon@damtek.com</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I am only stating the requirements for a PE. I do not disagree that
it whether you know the subject that counts not how you learned it.
The problem with educational requirements is that they do eliminate
people who learned the subject somewhere else. Also, remember in
most engineering fields the PE license is required for design
approval and necessarily for initial design. I worked in the
chemical process industry doing process design/engineering without a
PE. For final approval, all my work (and that of others) would go to
a PE for review and approval. <br>
<br>
PE licenses are required to approve a design not necessarily to
actually design. So a non-licensed person would work under the
technical supervision of a PE and this is not uncommon.<br>
<br>
What I found surprising when I looked into a Georgia PE is that they
did not require a degree in the specific field (or very closely
field) for any license. With a BS degree in Chemistry I could take
any EIT exam; not that I had any hope of passing most. I have
noticed that some fields are more restrictive for their educational
requirements to get the PE equivalent.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F1E3980DB8AB9946A64830BE610239A031441E9F@GA016E0MB02.corp.suntrust.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ale-bounces@ale.org">ale-bounces@ale.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ale-bounces@ale.org">mailto:ale-bounces@ale.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jay Lozier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ale@ale.org">ale@ale.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ale] a quick test of web site
stupid</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 03/06/2013 04:44 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Matt
Hessel <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:matt.hessel@gmail.com" target="_blank">matt.hessel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p>I see the idea behind the certification, but in practice
that seems mostly useful to employers when hiring
individuals with little on their resume.
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is different than a certification
because there would be design/development standards required
that are vendor independent.
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It's not for employers. It's for
lawyers and judges to use as a bludgeon to make companies
use good practices is coding for public consumption. If
company FOO is in software development, and they provide
code for banking, they MUST have a certified banking code
engineer on staff and sign off on the code or else that
code is not legal to use for banking. Or they can pay a
banking code engineering firm to evaluate their code and
sign off if it suits the engineers standards.<br>
<br>
If mom-n-pop company hires a developer to put up a web
site, they don't need a certified engineer to approve
anything UNTIL they add something like shopping site with
credit card stuff. If their website gets defaced because
they hired an idiot, that's their problem. If their
website gets hacked and credit card data is stolen, then
it's a criminal offense on them for deploying code that
was not approved by a professional engineer. I see drop-in
certified modules for various platforms to do this.
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This would help PHB inline; just tell them
they will have an all expense paid multi-year vacation in the
prison system.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I can't build a bridge for public use until I am a
certified, tested and passed Professional Engineer. As a
PE, it's MY name on the line for the stuff I sign off on.
So a PE won't approve crap. Is it a perfect system? Nope.
But it keeps slick talking idiots from building bridges
and practicing law and medicine.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Legally, there are slick idiots who manage
to fool people from time to time.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
A person who passes a PE exam doesn't need much else on
their resume. It's not possible to pass without mountains
of knowledge and/or experience. There is already a
Professional Software Engineer license process. What is
needed is to add HIPPA and Banking modules (or more
generically - data security) and then require that places
that use software in these fields have X years to be using
certified, compliant software or they get shut down, fined
out the ass or both for repeated violations. "Market
forces" can't fix this crap. It's like why we all drive on
the right hand side of the road. Someone decided we have
to clean up the mess and made it happen.<br>
<br>
like i need another project....</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Being from another engineering field you
need the PE to review and sign off on the design. Also, for a
PE it is a multi-step process of tests and experience. I
believe there is an education requirement that you must have a
physical science or engineering (BS level or higher) to be
allowed to take any exam. You must pass the EIT -
Engineer-in-Training exam for a specific engineering
discipline (Civil, Chemical, Electrical, etc), then you must
work in the field for several years before you can even take
the PE exam in the same field. I believe there are continuing
education requirements for a PE license.<br>
<br>
What I have seen is the PE requires the vendor to submit all
design/load calculations for review with the drawings and
documentation. The PE must approve the submission before you
have permission to proceed; there might be a couple of rounds
of submissions before approval. Competent vendors know what is
needed and often will only have the finalize the details for
the submission.<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>Jay Lozier</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jslozier@gmail.com">jslozier@gmail.com</a></pre>
</div>
LEGAL DISCLAIMER <br>
The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential
and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission,
dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon
this information by persons or entities other than the intended
recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error
please contact the sender and delete the material from any
computer.
<br>
By replying to this e-mail, you consent to SunTrust's monitoring
activities of all communication that occurs on SunTrust's systems.
<br>
SunTrust is a federally registered service mark of SunTrust Banks,
Inc.<br>
[ST:XCL]
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a>
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Jay Lozier
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jslozier@gmail.com">jslozier@gmail.com</a></pre>
</body>
</html>