Great thoughts, Richard Bronosky. An employer who thinks like this is worth working for, too.<br><br>I'm lucky I found an employer who appreciates enthusiasm and results. I hope folks here who are enthusiastic focus on results (in hobbies, volunteering, and work) more than worrying about the less important mechanics of getting a job and are then successful in finding an employer who appreciates enthusiasm and results. Other employers will probably be miserable to work for anyway.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Richard Bronosky <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Richard@bronosky.com">Richard@bronosky.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
One of the key things I look for when hiring (And I screened 129<br>
applicant code challenges<br>
<a href="https://github.com/RichardBronosky/Tic-Tac-Toe" target="_blank">https://github.com/RichardBronosky/Tic-Tac-Toe</a> this year) is that the<br>
applicant does "this stuff" for fun. One of the biggest selling points<br>
that I use to attract the best talent is this statement: "You will be<br>
working with a team of 30 developers who would all do this stuff for<br>
free if they weren't getting paid for it. But, unlike a startup you<br>
have the backing of a 100+ year old company."<br>
<br>
No matter how much experience you have, you will have a lot to learn<br>
to do the job. (Not just mine, but any job.) And I can't afford to pay<br>
you to learn it all. You have to love it. You have to do it for fun.<br>
You have to do it because it is who you are, not just what you do.<br>
<br>
Be _that_ person and you will get a job. If you only have your<br>
academic and work experience to offer, it is much harder to find the<br>
right opportunity.<br>
<br>
Also, I have no problem hiring developers whose primary experience is<br>
with Debian because it translates to CentOS fine... for a Developer.<br>
But, for an Operator, if you use Debian at home it had better be<br>
because you have been using RedHat for years and "in my free time I<br>
prefer apt." And you had better have an RMS beard to back it up.<br>
<br>
Finally, never say Ubuntu in an interview unless they say they use<br>
Ubuntu. Otherwise, you say Debian.<br>
<br>
Okay that was almost final. Last thing... Never use a subject like<br>
"Question". The subject of an email on a mailing list is how people<br>
decide whether or not to read the thread. My only purpose for even<br>
clicking on this thread was to blast you for the subject. But then I<br>
started to remember when I was just getting started back in 1995.<br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Jim Kinney <<a href="mailto:jim.kinney@gmail.com">jim.kinney@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> True. It will not count for work experience, BUT it's practice in the field<br>
> that will get you through the technical questions that come up.<br>
><br>
> It also looks good that you go home and do more than you did at work. You<br>
> are expanding your capabilities on your own time/dime.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Geoffrey Myers<br>
> <<a href="mailto:lists@serioustechnology.com">lists@serioustechnology.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I can't say that I disagree with Jim's suggestions, but very few<br>
>> companies will see such home exercises as work experience.<br>
>><br>
>> Just the same, you have to start somewhere. In most cases, you'll have<br>
>> to find a small company to get going with, which is difficult in the<br>
>> world of Linux.<br>
>><br>
>> Charles Shapiro wrote:<br>
>> > +1 to everything Jim said.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Also write a fun//happy//entertaining open source projects in a<br>
>> > popular language + serious library, e.g. python/WXPython or C++/QT4.<br>
>> > Learn the ins and outs of build, unit test, and packaging ( ant,<br>
>> > maven, autoconf, et cetera ). Learn to use and love a source code<br>
>> > control system ( CVS, SubVersion, or git). Learn something about<br>
>> > databases, administration and SQL ( PostGreSQL, MySQL, et cetera).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Ideally, get involved in someone else's project so you have to<br>
>> > actually, like, cooperate with other people on a technical problem.<br>
>> > If you happen to have a relatively rare TLA ("Three Letter<br>
>> > Abbreviation") which an organization needs and interview even halfway<br>
>> > well (e.g. don't take your clothes off in front of the HR weasel) then<br>
>> > they'll Want You.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -- CHS<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Jim Kinney <<a href="mailto:jim.kinney@gmail.com">jim.kinney@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> >> +10 on homework!<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> get a pile of old crap and make it "do things". Set up a web server, an<br>
>> >> NFS<br>
>> >> server, and a samba machine for windows file and print. Make<br>
>> >> everything<br>
>> >> talk to everything. Do things on a winders box and then do them better<br>
>> >> on<br>
>> >> the Linux box. Put MySQL and PostgreSQL on the same machine with the<br>
>> >> same<br>
>> >> data and test which one runs faster. Retest from a winders machine.<br>
>> >> retest<br>
>> >> through a webserver. That take some scripting/coding, some<br>
>> >> administration<br>
>> >> and some engineering.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <time to piss off the ubuntu/debian/slackware/gentoo fans><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Get CentOS and read the RedHat documentation<br>
>> >> <a href="https://access.redhat.com/knowledge/docs/" target="_blank">https://access.redhat.com/knowledge/docs/</a> . Use nothing but CentOS 5 or<br>
>> >> CentOS6 (CentOS is the poor mans RHEL). The vast majority of paying<br>
>> >> jobs<br>
>> >> that come across the ale-jobs list (and that recruiters hit me as well)<br>
>> >> are<br>
>> >> for REDHAT. By vast majority, I mean 80+%. That doesn't mean some other<br>
>> >> distro won't work. But RHEL background will get your foot in the door.<br>
>> >> Configs between RHEL and Ubuntu are totally not compatible until you<br>
>> >> totally<br>
>> >> understand all bootup aspects of both distros AND are a bash guru.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <end RHEL love fest><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Learn virtualization and clustering. Be able to pull the power cord out<br>
>> >> of a<br>
>> >> crap box and have it's backup system pick up automatically. Learn<br>
>> >> scripting!<br>
>> >> Bash is your friend! Automate everything! Make your systems sort email<br>
>> >> by<br>
>> >> sender's 3rd letter of their last name (useless but a hard scripting<br>
>> >> exercise!). Don't use a gui for anything except viewing pictures! Learn<br>
>> >> backup methods from mondo to bacula.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Use your local teachers as resources for extra experience. Ask if there<br>
>> >> is<br>
>> >> anything you can do to get more exposure. Ask for extra projects or for<br>
>> >> lab<br>
>> >> time working with them. Most profs will show a willingness to take on a<br>
>> >> total newbie if the newbie shows they are _MOTIVATED_TO_LEARN_.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Wolf Halton <<a href="mailto:wolf.halton@gmail.com">wolf.halton@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Mike Fletcher <<a href="mailto:fletch@phydeaux.org">fletch@phydeaux.org</a>><br>
>> >>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2011, at 17:49, jesse james <<a href="mailto:yoshi_mush_room@yahoo.com">yoshi_mush_room@yahoo.com</a>><br>
>> >>>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> I currently in school trying to get a Bachelor's in IT. I want to be<br>
>> >>>> a<br>
>> >>>> Linux admin. But the every job I see is require at least 5 years<br>
>> >>>> experience<br>
>> >>>> in Red Hat administration. How would I go looking for something that<br>
>> >>>> doesn't<br>
>> >>>> require as much experience like an internship or something that would<br>
>> >>>> build<br>
>> >>>> my experience.<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> You might check with your campus IT group and see if they have any<br>
>> >>>> part<br>
>> >>>> time openings. Even if they don't have admin openings for students<br>
>> >>>> you might<br>
>> >>>> find an ops position that gets you a foot in the door and contacts<br>
>> >>>> with the<br>
>> >>>> admins.<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >>>> Ale mailing list<br>
>> >>>> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
>> >>>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
>> >>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
>> >>>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Start building that administration experience by setting up a network<br>
>> >>> at<br>
>> >>> home, and certainly look for non-profits that might be able to get you<br>
>> >>> in as<br>
>> >>> a volunteer. Volunteer experience is still experience.<br>
>> >>> --<br>
>> >>> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - <a href="http://sourcefreedom.com" target="_blank">http://sourcefreedom.com</a><br>
>> >>> Advancing Libraries Together - <a href="http://LYRASIS.org" target="_blank">http://LYRASIS.org</a><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >>> Ale mailing list<br>
>> >>> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
>> >>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
>> >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> James P. Kinney III<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to<br>
>> >> consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as<br>
>> >> they<br>
>> >> please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.<br>
>> >> - 2011 Noam Chomsky<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Ale mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
>> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
>> >> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Ale mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
>> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
>> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Until later, Geoffrey<br>
>><br>
>> "I predict future happiness for America if they can prevent<br>
>> the government from wasting the labors of the people under<br>
>> the pretense of taking care of them."<br>
>> - Thomas Jefferson<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Ale mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> James P. Kinney III<br>
><br>
> As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to<br>
> consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they<br>
> please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.<br>
> - 2011 Noam Chomsky<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Ale mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div></div>.!# RichardBronosky #!.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br> Ed Cashin <<a href="mailto:ecashin@noserose.net">ecashin@noserose.net</a>><br> <a href="http://noserose.net/e/">http://noserose.net/e/</a><br> <a href="http://www.coraid.com/">http://www.coraid.com/</a><br>