risk vs cost. It's a very valid analysis. One thing I have found with the RHEL/CentOS Fedora world is the gui's needed to do things for admin stuff are all named system-config-*. This means it's easy to pop up a gnoe terminal, su - root, and run the gui command from a normal user account X session. This has also been deemed relatively safe as now the (growing) security in Xorg can follow the UID tags and see that root owns a data stream and can add the protections frmt he rest of the gui environment.<br>
<br>For me, being able to switch to an admin role while on my normal desktop WITHOUT having to login as a root user is a key aspect of my happy factor with the Linux setup. Windows made me completely leave the environment where I notice the need for a change but Linux lets me make the change with the relevant data still availableand ready for testing.<br>
<br>The different gui environments have their own security issues. I would expect that what ever tool/lib handles the interprocess-communication layer is the most vulnerable and difficult to secure. For Gnome, that's bonobo. The last time I looked, bonobo could leak data between users as it relied on relatively weak security controls. <br>
<br>Since I use both single user Linux system as well as manage multi-user servers, I have a split view of desktop security. <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:29 AM, William Fragakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:william@fragakis.com">william@fragakis.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Since I invited this flame-fest....<br>
<br>
Let's define "bad", to borrow from my wife, is this "cross the double<br>
yellow line" bad or "I'm driving across the mall parking lot without my<br>
seatbelt" bad?<br>
<br>
Both, violate rules of safety. One will get you killed in about 2<br>
minutes, the other, probably not.<br>
<br>
Most things we do in life involve inherent risks. A ride down the<br>
interstate and seeing the crosses and flowers on the side is a ready<br>
reminder.<br>
<br>
Those of us who feel the need/convenience to 'that which can not be<br>
said', aren't doing so we can log into our facebook accounts with<br>
ies4linux. Some things can be done completely from the CLI, somethings<br>
by su/sudo and some things for us who've been using a mouse-based GUI<br>
for 24 years are much easier for the 15-20 minutes we need it if we can<br>
get to a full-blown desktop.<br>
<br>
Mind you, I'm not the systems admin for a Fortune 500 company. I just<br>
have a couple boxes in the basement. My skill set is at a basement level<br>
as well.<br>
<br>
Say, I'm messing about setting up a separate drive for my VMs, creating<br>
the VMs, messing about with samba, editing a few .confs etc. and - God<br>
forbid - having to consult Google when I hit a roadblock. For me, it's a<br>
heck of a lot easier to fire up a desktop for root so I don't have to<br>
deal with su'ing 5 different programs. The automatic response is "you<br>
shouldn't, you should do each one, separately." To those of us who've<br>
somehow used a desktop for decades with admin privileges without<br>
incident, that response is a bit Jobsian ("learn to hold your phone<br>
differently, it's not the phone's fault").<br>
<br>
Could I get hacked or attacked or pooch my system in those 20 minutes?<br>
Sure. But, in 20 minutes on the road, I could easily have a serious auto<br>
crash. It's much more probable that 20 minutes on any Atlanta interstate<br>
could involve me in a serious crash (during the school year, I'm on the<br>
Connector everyday, so I don't feel like I'm overstating the odds) than<br>
having my system get borked in the same amount of time.<br>
<br>
I'd even go further to say that if having a root graphical interface is<br>
inherently something that should never be done, then the graphical stack<br>
is too fragile.<br>
<br>
Just for fun, I looked up X11 and Xorg security advisories. I realize<br>
that there are more elements to a GUI than that but the list isn't<br>
unsettling for my usage.<br>
<<a href="http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Security?action=show&redirect=SecurityPage" target="_blank">http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Security?action=show&redirect=SecurityPage</a>><br>
<br>
Again, I get that if I'm running the system of something where if things<br>
go bad people lose their jobs or die, I need to be really, really<br>
careful and not log in as root. But let's be somewhat realistic on what<br>
"bad" is. <begin playful sarcasm>Otherwise, I fully expect that should I<br>
see you driving about town that you'll be using your HANS head restraint<br>
device and have environmentally safe foam peanuts up to your<br>
windows.</bps><br>
<br>
And, <more bps>considering how many Liberterians there are on this list<br>
who haven't risen to the defense of my doing something stupid being my<br>
own concern, I'm shocked. ;-) </more bps><br>
<br>
Now, let me go get my Nomex suit before the responses come hurtling in.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
William<br>
<br>
Message sent from my reinforced concrete bunker from an account that<br>
barely had enough privileges to even use the keyboard.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 2010-08-01 at 08:22 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:<br>
> kdesu works in kde.<br>
><br>
> I use it from time to time.<br>
><br>
> Greg<br>
><br>
> On 7/31/10, Richard Bronosky <<a href="mailto:Richard@bronosky.com">Richard@bronosky.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > While I agree with the sentiments of this message, the subject is just<br>
> > plain wrong. Running *stuff* as root *is not* bad. Running<br>
> > *everything* as root *is* bad. That is exactly what happens when you<br>
> > log into GUI [display manager|window manager|desktop<br>
> > environment|whatever] (I don't know anything about the X.org stack. I<br>
> > don't use GUIs) you run *everything* as yourself. You don't want that<br>
> > _yourself_ to be root. I could have sworn that back when I was doing<br>
> > MythTV I used xfce or rat poison and I used a utility called Xsudo,<br>
> > sudoX, or GnomeSudo. That was good for running the occational app as<br>
> > sudo. I found that MythTV being graphical by nature forced me to do<br>
> > this.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 7/30/10, scott mcbrien <<a href="mailto:smcbrien@gmail.com">smcbrien@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> One of the big problems with other OS'es is that users log in as an<br>
> >> account with administrative privileges. On those OS'es, when an<br>
> >> application, being run by the user, runs amok (perhaps a web browser<br>
> >> executing badness from flash or java script?), that application runs<br>
> >> amok with administrative rights. So when the application tries to<br>
> >> mangle system files, libraries, etc. it can because administrators<br>
> >> could also modify said files. That's one example of why you don't want<br>
> >> to log in as root, but there are many more, mostly because desktop<br>
> >> environments like gnome run many many many processes and helper<br>
> >> applications each of which, when logged in as root, is given full<br>
> >> administrative permission to do whatever they want on a system.<br>
> >><br>
> >> -Scott<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 7:05 PM, William Fragakis <<a href="mailto:william@fragakis.com">william@fragakis.com</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >>> Nautilus, for one ;-)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> GParted can do some interesting things, too, I'd gather but I've never<br>
> >>> tried (to do "interesting things"). Gedit can make your day exciting as<br>
> >>> well. Personally, I can easily do as much damage from the CLI if not<br>
> >>> more.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I do find it easy sometimes to actually have a root Desktop although, on<br>
> >>> this esteemed list, I'm probably in a distinct minority.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If something bad happens, I was never here.<br>
> >>> regards,<br>
> >>> William<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 18:49 -0400, Drifter wrote:<br>
> >>>> Thanks, this seems to work.<br>
> >>>> But you have to admire the warning label that pops up before the GUI<br>
> >>>> actually appears on the screen:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> "You are currently trying to run as Root super user. The superuser is a<br>
> >>>> specialized account that is not designed to run a normal user session.<br>
> >>>> Various programs will not function properly and actions performed under<br>
> >>>> this account can cause unrecoverable damage to the operating system."<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> No hint, of course, as to what sorts of programs can cause the damage.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Sean<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> On Friday, July 30, 2010 06:13:33 pm William Fragakis wrote:<br>
> >>>> > <a href="http://blog.ask4itsolutions.com/2010/04/23/login-as-a-root-from-gui-fed" target="_blank">http://blog.ask4itsolutions.com/2010/04/23/login-as-a-root-from-gui-fed</a><br>
> >>>> > ora-13/<br>
> >>>> ><br>
> >>>> > Did this a couple of days ago.<br>
> >>>> ><br>
> >>>> > Use at your own risk, owner assumes all liabilites, etc. etc.<br>
> >>>> ><br>
> >>>> > On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 17:32 -0400, Drifter wrote:<br>
> >>>> > > There are times when I need to to things as root that are -- for me<br>
> >>>> > > -- much easier to do using the GUI aps rather than the command line.<br>
> >>>> > > Years ago on a Red Hat install, root actually had a directory in<br>
> >>>> > > /home and I could log into the system as root and have the GUI.<br>
> >>>> > ><br>
> >>>> > > This FC13 install doesn't provide that feature. I can create, as<br>
> >>>> > > root, a directory in /home. That's easy enough. But what do I have<br>
> >>>> > > to do so that I can log in as root directly just as I log into my<br>
> >>>> > > regular user account? If I try to log in as root now, the system<br>
> >>>> > > just laughs at me.<br>
> >>>> > ><br>
> >>>> > > Clearly I am missing several steps in the process.<br>
> >>>> > ><br>
> >>>> > > Sean<br>
> >>>> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> > > Ale mailing list<br>
> >>>> > > <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> >>>> > > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> >>>> > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> >>>> > > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> >>>> ><br>
> >>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> > Ale mailing list<br>
> >>>> > <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> >>>> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> >>>> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> >>>> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> Ale mailing list<br>
> >>>> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> >>>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> >>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> >>>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Ale mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> >>> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Ale mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> >> <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Sent from my mobile device<br>
> ><br>
> > .!# RichardBronosky #!.<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Ale mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a><br>
> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at<br>
> > <a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo" target="_blank">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo</a><br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>-- <br>James P. Kinney III<br>I would rather stumble along in freedom than walk effortlessly in chains.<br><br><br>