There's not point at which ocean life just flat dies that humans will ever see as we'll be long dead before then. It's a gradual change in what is supported. Some things like a more acidic environment than what is currently available. Those species are currently in very limited supply. They are also not species that are beneficial to the current ecosystem that supports and feeds humans. Thus a change that benefits those species will have adverse effects on humans. I will not be happy without my weekly fish intake.<br>
<br>When discussions of a pH change take place without specifying a particular region, the location will be the large bulk of ocean water located away from river estuaries and at a large distance from freshwater melt from ice locations. As for nearly all climate change discussions, the change being discussed in not a localized change but a change in the large-scale aggregate environment. Local effects of change will be varied - some places will benefit slightly while most places will suffer changes that make food supply for humans an issue.<br>
<br>Currently, the economics of the US (and the rest of the world for that matter) are viewed as rather crappy. But my personal economics are doing pretty OK. Extrapolating from my economics to global economics is an error in statistical sampling. But to extrapolate from global to local economics is valid since it is a narrowing focus of sample set sizes. Law firms that handle debt collection are doing damn well these days. I really don't want the environment they thrive in to continue anymore than I want the RedTide environment to dominate. <br>
<br>I did a bit more digging on the RedTide and I was wrong about the pH aspect (I'm scratching my head on how I made that link). Redtide is more associated with a temperature rise that any other measured factor. It is also associated with increased rainfall (which will have an effect on surface pH and salinity, etc as a dillution process). but the mineral salt content _should_ act as a pH buffer to some extent. Nonetheless, a temperature rise in ocean surface _is_ one of those "we are very concerned" data points that CC scientist discuss often. Sadly, between the politics and economics, the ability to maintain accurate temperature measurments ofer such a large area as the ocean surface has dwindled at a time we really need them to increase. The modeling methods based on spot temperatures, satellite data, airplane flyover and air movement data have error bars larger than the calulated changes. They have done extrapolation on the error bar trends and midpoints but even the most vocal CC champions are loathe to use that data as hard science. There was a proposal to deploy several thousand solar powered bouys globally a while back but I've lost track of that process. It seemed like a good idea. Maybe if it was coupled with something like the tsunami projects...<br>
<br>I may have made A's in my chemistry but the bulk of that was 20 years ago (what's the emoticon for "geezer"?). I didn't even get a refresher as my daughter didn't need help when she took it. Hmphfff.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Greg Freemyer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:greg.freemyer@gmail.com">greg.freemyer@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I decided to look it up.<br>
<br>
It appears the ocean's PH has gone from about 8.2 to 8.1 in the last<br>
200 years. ie. a .1 change has already occurred.<br>
<br>
I did not see anything that said at what point ocean life dies, but I<br>
did not look very hard.<br>
<br>
As to the arctic ice melt potentially helping, isn't it fresh water?<br>
ie. Frozen rain? If so, it's actually got a PH below 7 already, so it<br>
melting will just make the problem worse. (See, I don't refuse to use<br>
my brain! (but I'm still not anywhere near convinced.))<br>
<br>
That made me wonder about the current local PH levels in the ocean.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/oceanph.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/oceanph.jpg</a><br>
<br>
Looks like it varies from 7.9 to 8.2<br>
<br>
Are we seeing a die-off in the current 7.9 areas? I don't know, but<br>
if so I expect I would have read about it in this little research<br>
project.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Greg<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Jeff Hubbs <<a href="mailto:jhubbslist@att.net">jhubbslist@att.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> Recall that pH is a logarithm of a ratio...<br>
><br>
> On 5/10/10 6:05 AM, Paul Cartwright wrote:<br>
>> On Sun May 9 2010, Jim Kinney wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> I'm not positive on the total impacts but I pretty sure that a shift of 0.1<br>
>>> in pH will be a huge change in what lives and what dies in the oceans. It's<br>
>>> that level of change that allows the red algae blooms that spell death to<br>
>>> hundreds of square miles of oceans at a time. That's a localized event.<br>
>>> Imagine the fishing that will be available if the only place left that has<br>
>>> a pH in the range to not allow red algae blooms is the arctic ice melt<br>
>>> current.<br>
>>><br>
>> not to pick nits here, but a 0.1 shift in ph?<br>
>> I could find no reference to ph in any red tide listing, but I did find a<br>
>> reference to massive ph level changes that killed fish here:<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freshwater_environmental_quality_parameters" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freshwater_environmental_quality_parameters</a><br>
>><br>
>> Atmospheric inputs<br>
>> <snip><br>
>> In parts of Scandinavia and West Wales and Scotland many rivers became so<br>
>> acidic from oxides of sulphur that most fish life was destroyed and pHs as<br>
>> low as pH4 were recorded during critical weather conditions.[2]<br>
>><br>
>> --------------<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
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