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Paul:<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Your email really helped. It was thoughtful and focused on my unique issue, thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>I used to live in Phx. I hated it there and loved Atl, so I picked up and moved thinking I will ask to telecommute and if they say no, then I will try and get a new job in Georgia. </div><div><br></div><div>I know lots of people in AZ including users groups, Java, Wireless, Ruby, and Ruby on Rails people. Unfortunately, most of those people are consultants and are doing well. I know lots of people from ASU (the local university), but most need "sponsorship" and this job won't sponsor. </div><div><br></div><div>I agree that it really is "who you know". I always thought this was most pertinent when job seeking, but from your email, it applies to many more things.</div><div><br></div><div>I really think the point is that I need to network more here and in Phx to find the right contact.</div><div><br></div><div>It is funny that you mentioned Joel Splosky, I just saw him speak at Rails Conf in Portland. I read his blog and always hated him, but since I have met him, he is not the antichrist like I made him out to be. I have changed my view of him. </div><div><br></div><div>I go to phx every quarter or so, but find that I do not need to go that often. I go more often after november ;) but before April when it is 8 million degrees again.</div><div><br></div><div>I think overall you are correct in saying that if you are good are your job, you are usually fully employed and it takes a better deal to pry you away. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Chris</div><div><br></div></span></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br><div><div>On Jul 15, 2008, at 4:36 PM, Paul McKibben wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Chris,<br><br>I used to be a team lead with significant input into the hiring process (I left that company and am now an independent consultant). I found it nearly impossible to find good people. As I'm sure you understand, it took more than just finding people with the right education and the right skill set: it involved finding people who KNEW HOW TO THINK, and who could WORK WITH YOUR TEAM. No job board or body shop is going to help you find that.<br> <br>I am convinced that the only way to find good people is to be involved in the developer community through user groups like ALE, the Atlanta PHP User Group, and any other groups relevant to the profession and skills you're hiring for, and GET TO KNOW the people in those groups. Also, talk to other developers you trust and see if they can recommend anybody. The best hires I've had are people who I already knew, or at least who my friends knew. Forget <a href="http://monster.com">monster.com</a> and the other job boards--they will not help you. By and large, the best and brightest rarely post their resumes on job boards because they already have jobs they are happy with, and when they're unhappy, their next job is just a phone call to a friend away.<br> <br>Having to hire somebody in AZ when you live in Atlanta is going to be a real problem--clearly your strongest network will be here in Atlanta. Maybe you can convince your management to back off on that requirement. Otherwise, is relocation a possibility if you find a good person here? How often are you in AZ? Any chance of getting involved with user groups there?<br> <br>Recommended reading on finding and hiring the best and brightest:<br><br><a href="http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html">http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html</a> (check out his his other articles, too)<br> <a href="http://asktheheadhunter.com">http://asktheheadhunter.com</a> (usually from a job seeker's perspective, but good info for those on the hiring side too)<br><br>Best of luck, and feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions.<br> <br>--Paul<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, <<a href="mailto:ale-request@ale.org">ale-request@ale.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br> ------------------------------<br> <br> Message: 2<br> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:40:54 -0400<br> From: "Atlanta Geek" <<a href="mailto:atlantageek@gmail.com">atlantageek@gmail.com</a>><br> Subject: Re: [ale] question about hiring developers<br> To: <a href="mailto:ale@ale.org">ale@ale.org</a><br> Message-ID:<br> <<a href="mailto:dd7c97280807151140r6f5fae48qf34362c0a3935540@mail.gmail.com">dd7c97280807151140r6f5fae48qf34362c0a3935540@mail.gmail.com</a>><br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br> <br> When we were hiring 1.5 years ago it was difficult to find a perl guy<br> at <$70,000 here in Atlanta even though the work environment was good<br> back then.<br> <br> <br> <br> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Chris Fowler<br> <<a href="mailto:cfowler@outpostsentinel.com">cfowler@outpostsentinel.com</a>> wrote:<br> > You should compare the cost of living in Phoenix Arizona.<br> ><br> > At the current gas rate here in Atlanta, $60k could be a bit low.<br> > Especially if the<br> > job requires driving into the office each an every day. Luckily I<br> > stopped that madness<br> > years ago.<br> ><br> > I thought that if I did ever look for another job that I would do<br> > something radical and request compensation based on my expenses. If<br> > they really want me onsite then my compensation will be higher due to<br> > $4/gal gas. If I'm at home then I can pass those savings on to my<br> > employer. Maybe when the employer has to pay for gas they are open to<br> > ways to save that money.<br> ><br> > I don't want to upset job lookers here but what you might want to try is<br> > to post the job<br> > and not post the salary. See what hits you get and make decisions based<br> > on that. If you get now hits then possibly there are no qualified<br> > people in Phoenix. If you do get hits then you need to tell management<br> > that they need to either look for another developer in another city to<br> > work remote or raise their rate.<br> ><br> ><br> > Chris Kleeschulte wrote:<br> >> So I am an IT director for a company based in Phoenix, AZ. Really, I<br> >> am a computer scientist would agreed to manage a team of 3 developers.<br> >> I have been in charge of hiring new people for our growing business,<br> >> but I am really having a hard time finding people. Not just<br> >> "qualified" people, just people in general.<br> >><br> >> I live in Atlanta and work from home, but upper management wants<br> >> someone on site in AZ. I have advertised on Craig's and with the LUG's<br> >> in the area. At this point, is it worth my time to go to monster and<br> >> all the big job sites?<br> >><br> >> What are your feelings on how to hire quality people in general? I am<br> >> a bit unskilled in selecting the right people. I had a pipe dream that<br> >> offering a job with pay of over 60K would just bring in applicants.<br> >> This job is all linux all day and programming in PHP, Ruby, Python. I<br> >> would jump at this job if it were me needing a gig.<br> >><br> >> I have also checked what the market rate for this type of job should<br> >> pay. This is a really rough estimate, but what should a programmer<br> >> with imperative type programming experience (2-3 years) be paid? I<br> >> have friends on the Microsoft side that work as Exchange architects<br> >> and they make 120K+. Is this high rate just an anomaly, or do people<br> >> on the Microsoft really make that kind of coin?<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> Chris Kleeschulte<br> >><br> >><br> </blockquote></div><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ale mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:Ale@ale.org">Ale@ale.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale">http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>